Why is the area around the CP Agincourt rail yards not entirely industrial/commercial?

[MichaelZ]

Namely, the below circled neighborhoods seem incredibly close to such a large railway yard. Wouldn’t industrial/commercial land there have been much more valuable and also much more sensible?

And its not like there was a shortage of demand for such spaces since even areas quite far away from any rail line or highway were zoned as industrial/commercial. So I can’t see any reason why a normal suburban neighborhood would be approved and built, and marketed!, within throwing distance from the yard when large warehouses, factories, etc., are spread along all the way to Steeles, several km to the north.

There’s also a similarly weird neighborhood next to the railway yard in Vaughan, in what seems to be nearly the best possible industrial land, and nearly the worst possible residential land.

 

[Northern Light]

Namely, the below circled neighborhoods seem incredibly close to such a large railway yard. Wouldn’t industrial/commercial land there have been much more valuable and also much more sensible?
View attachment 423408


And its not like there was a shortage of demand for such spaces since even areas quite far away from any rail line or highway were zoned as industrial/commercial. I can’t see any reason why a normal suburban neighborhood would be built a few hundred meters away from the yard when large warehouses, factories, etc., are spread along all the way to Steeles, several km to the north.

The answers lie, in part, in the planning documents for those communities (which I haven't read)........and aren't online so far as I can discern........

But you can go read'em and tell us the answer!

For Malvern, look here:

Malvern Project. Prepared for the Federal-Provincial Partnership, the Policy Committee, Planning Sub-committee.

Malvern Project. Prepared for the Federal-Provincial Partnership, the Policy Committee, Planning Sub-committee., , Toronto Public Library

www.torontopubliclibrary.ca

I can't find a good similar document for Agincourt North/Woodside, but doubtless there is one buried somewhere.

*****

I would say, by the 1970s when much of this area was built out, Toronto was stable to declining in terms of industrial space. Rapid de-industrialization had yet to begin, but was in the near-term offing by then.

Here's a bit from Heritage Toronto on the decline of Scarborough's Golden Mile, which began in earnest with SKF's factory closing in 1981 (now Scotiabank's campus in the area)

From: https://www.heritagetoronto.org/exp...ory-golden-mile/golden-mile-industry-decline/

***

It was during the '80s (just after the build-out of this area) that Toronto would lose Massey-Ferguson, Inglis, Domtar, and a slew of other large industrial employers.

Prior to Toronto's stratospheric growth, and the development of online retailing which requires large volumes of warehouse space, vacancy was considerably higher.

****

Worth noting is that CP's Toronto Yard (Agincourt) was only built in 1964; as a replacement for the West Toronto and Lambton facilities. (the latter of which clung to life until very recently)

In its own right, its massive at 432 acres; a good deal of which ( ~ 100 acres) is currently in dis-use.

Its possible some of that could become a future subway yard for the Sheppard Subway; but I would not be surprised to see some of that land repurposed as Industrial; even as some Industrial land elsewhere in Scarborough will continue to fall to Mixed-use/residential. Though the challenge is that the dis-used area is literally in the middle of the rail yard, if the remaining yard functions are to stay, some re-arrangement would likely be required.

 

[crs1026]

The answer is simple, as shown below (1966): The railroad was there first.

The Borough of Scarborough was the entity that chose to allow residential development there, over the protest of the railway, and likely because of persistent and concerted pressure from a developer. The CN rail yards have a similar legacy.

I don't completely agree when people reply "the railway was there first" in response to NIMBY complaints, but in this case the shoe fits. There was no good reason for Scarborough politicians to let this one go by.

- Paul

PS: There was plenty of complaining by residents about noise from the rail yards over the years, if you are researcching further you may be able to find some of that documented in newspaper archives or CTC proceedings.

 

[MichaelZ]

The answer is simple, as shown below (1966): The railroad was there first.

The Borough of Scarborough was the entity that chose to allow residential development there, over the protest of the railway, and likely because of persistent and concerted pressure from a developer. The CN rail yards have a similar legacy.

I don't completely agree when people reply "the railway was there first" in response to NIMBY complaints, but in this case the shoe fits. There was no good reason for Scarborough politicians to let this one go by.

- Paul

PS: There was plenty of complaining by residents about noise from the rail yards over the years, if you are researcching further you may be able to find some of that documented in newspaper archives or CTC proceedings.

View attachment 423412

Thanks for the historic photo. Neat to see it was all farmland surrounding the yard.
But it's curious, why would the developer have specifically have wanted land right next to the yard when there was more space between McNicoll and Steeles? Clearly that area was also farmland at the time so it seems like the developers and planners worked hard to achieve something that literally is worse than if they just stuck to the norm.

 

[lenaitch]

Thanks for the historic photo. Neat to see it was all farmland surrounding the yard.
But it's curious, why would the developer have specifically have wanted land right next to the yard when there was more space between McNicoll and Steeles? Clearly that area was also farmland at the time so it seems like the developers and planners worked hard to achieve something that literally is worse than if they just stuck to the norm.

I will guess the land closer to the yard was cheaper, and they managed to convince township council to (re)zone it residential. Although it is farmland, you would have to research who actually owned it in the period right after the yard went in. There's a better than even chance it wasn't the farmer.

 

[Sandpit]

Namely, the below circled neighborhoods seem incredibly close to such a large railway yard. Wouldn’t industrial/commercial land there have been much more valuable and also much more sensible?
View attachment 423408


And its not like there was a shortage of demand for such spaces since even areas quite far away from any rail line or highway were zoned as industrial/commercial. So I can’t see any reason why a normal suburban neighborhood would be approved and built, and marketed!, within throwing distance from the yard when large warehouses, factories, etc., are spread along all the way to Steeles, several km to the north.

There’s also a similarly weird neighborhood next to the railway yard in Vaughan, in what seems to be nearly the best possible industrial land, and nearly the worst possible residential land.
View attachment 423410

In the second pic, *I believe* the residential area was there first (part of the original village of Concord). In any case, it's the main reason why there's no Barrie Line station at Highway 7 or one planned in the near future.

 

[lenaitch]

In the second pic, *I believe* the residential area was there first (part of the original village of Concord). In any case, it's the main reason why there's no Barrie Line station at Highway 7 or one planned in the near future.

Way off. This is the CP yards in Agincourt, Finch Ave East and Markham Rd.

 

[crs1026]

In the second pic, *I believe* the residential area was there first (part of the original village of Concord). In any case, it's the main reason why there's no Barrie Line station at Highway 7 or one planned in the near future.

If you are referring to the residential area east of Keele and south of Highway 7, it was indeed developed before the CN rail yards. This photo from the City Archives, circa 1962, while the yard was being built.

- Paul

 

[MichaelZ]

If you are referring to the residential area east of Keele and south of Highway 7, it was indeed developed before the CN rail yards. This photo from the City Archives, circa 1962, while the yard was being built.

- Paul

View attachment 423917

Thanks for the photo. This neighborhood makes more sense since it likely predates the decision to build the yard. Considering industrial property values have skyrocketed recently maybe it will be converted to industrial land in the future? I wonder if that has ever happened before…

 

[crs1026]

PS - Last one - The area south east of CP Agincourt still wasn't built in 1968. Boy, it was easy to find the old Canadian Northern ROW back then.

- Paul

 

[MichaelZ]

The answers lie, in part, in the planning documents for those communities (which I haven't read)........and aren't online so far as I can discern........

But you can go read'em and tell us the answer!

For Malvern, look here:

Malvern Project. Prepared for the Federal-Provincial Partnership, the Policy Committee, Planning Sub-committee.

Malvern Project. Prepared for the Federal-Provincial Partnership, the Policy Committee, Planning Sub-committee., , Toronto Public Library

www.torontopubliclibrary.ca

I can't find a good similar document for Agincourt North/Woodside, but doubtless there is one buried somewhere.

*****

I would say, by the 1970s when much of this area was built out, Toronto was stable to declining in terms of industrial space. Rapid de-industrialization had yet to begin, but was in the near-term offing by then.

Here's a bit from Heritage Toronto on the decline of Scarborough's Golden Mile, which began in earnest with SKF's factory closing in 1981 (now Scotiabank's campus in the area)

View attachment 423411

From: https://www.heritagetoronto.org/exp...ory-golden-mile/golden-mile-industry-decline/

***

It was during the '80s (just after the build-out of this area) that Toronto would lose Massey-Ferguson, Inglis, Domtar, and a slew of other large industrial employers.

Prior to Toronto's stratospheric growth, and the development of online retailing which requires large volumes of warehouse space, vacancy was considerably higher.

****

Worth noting is that CP's Toronto Yard (Agincourt) was only built in 1964; as a replacement for the West Toronto and Lambton facilities. (the latter of which clung to life until very recently)

In its own right, its massive at 432 acres; a good deal of which ( ~ 100 acres) is currently in dis-use.

Its possible some of that could become a future subway yard for the Sheppard Subway; but I would not be surprised to see some of that land repurposed as Industrial; even as some Industrial land elsewhere in Scarborough will continue to fall to Mixed-use/residential. Though the challenge is that the dis-used area is literally in the middle of the rail yard, if the remaining yard functions are to stay, some re-arrangement would likely be required.

This does seem to be the only big plot of bare land left for industrial development in Toronto, I wonder how much it would have to sell for to make it worthwhile for CP to rearrange the tracks. $5 million an acre?

 

[rbt]

This does seem to be the only big plot of bare land left for industrial development in Toronto, I wonder how much it would have to sell for to make it worthwhile for CP to rearrange the tracks. $5 million an acre?

Considerably more I would think. Developers are paying a little over $110 per buildable sqft within 416 Toronto. If they rezoned for a relatively low FSI of 3 (roughly matching Golden Mile) they'd be looking at $14M/acre, and CP hasn't tried to rezone the land.

 

[MichaelZ]

Considerably more I would think. Developers are paying a little over $110 per buildable sqft within 416 Toronto. If they rezoned for a relatively low FSI of 3 (roughly matching Golden Mile) they'd be looking at $14M/acre, and CP hasn't tried to rezone the land.

FSI of 3 for industrial buildings? I’ve never seen a 5 story factory/warehouse before.

Also, it seems like if CP got rid of the northern tracks it would open up an area roughly 1500m x 400m, which is roughly 148 acres, so this may be the biggest land sale ever.

 

[rbt]

FSI of 3 for industrial buildings? I’ve never seen a 5 story factory/warehouse before.

Rezone as residential with ground-level retail (as is increasingly popular). It close enough to SSE that the city would have a hard time rejecting a residential proposal.

They just need to make the proposal to put a high value on the land. TTC or Metrolinx can pay that value and use it as a railway yard themselves.

 

[MichaelZ]

Rezone as residential with ground-level retail (as is increasingly popular).

It would be within walking distance of the new Sheppard & Mccowan subway station, though would the city approve upzoning that much? Even if only 100 acres out of 148 is converted, that’s still 300 acres of residential floorspace…