Why has there been no serious deamalgamation campaign?

[adma]

Howl: Interesting insight about Ontario's Cities and Counties...
I find it interesting that Brantford-even though as mentioned is surrounded by Brant
County-is an independent City...This reminds me of the Commonwealth of Virginia
(that State's official name) in which there are independent cities that are not part
of counties even though in some instances it is totally surrounded by a County...

Some of the best examples are in the Washington,DC area:
Fairfax City-even though it is surrounded by Fairfax County-is a Independent City...
The Cities of Alexandria and Falls Church are Independent Cities...
Arlington County and the City of Arlington are co-existent...

Comparisons from Long Island Mike

Actually, contrary to what howl seems to imply, Ontario *didn't* have Virginia-style Independent Cities. That is, while city status might have granted Brantford a certain autonomy it wouldn't have had as a town or village, it was still understood to be part of Brant County. (Look it up in old municipal directories, censuses, etc: Brantford's listed under Brant County. It's only with Harris mega-amalgamation that everything was f'ed up; so now Brant County is a mega-municipality, and Brantford's a megamunicipality, and the actual old-style county, as opposed to the present dummy-named municipality, might as well be defunct in all but a statistical sense, kind of like how New England counties are.)

In fact, until Mike Harris turned everything inside out, the closest thing to a true Virginia-style Independent City in Ontario was Metro Toronto, whose components were separated from the York County they once belonged to (though I can't recall when that became "binding"--when Metro was formed in '53? When it was reorganized in 1966? When York Region was set up in 1971?) But everything else belonged, at least for some such rudimentary purpose such as statistical, to a county or district or region...

 

[toraerach]

Everyone: I noticed much discontent with the current unified City of Toronto in
this topic and I will ask:

What would it take to bring back the six-borough Metro government?

Would it be thru a voter referendum which could be the fairest way
for Toronto to de-amalgimate?

Would it have support from a clear majority of
Toronto's residents?

Would there be a lot of red tape from the Province of Ontario and/or Canada's
Federal Government?

Do many feel that Toronto's government was better during the six-borough days?

This is a prime example of why I am a member of the Urban Toronto forum-reading and further learning about Toronto's government...the history alone was interesting...

Long Island Mike

Even if Toronto was de-amalgamated, I wouldn't bet on it necessarily going back to the old six borough format especially if it was left to a referendum in each borough. Even if the outter three boroughs separated, I'm not sure the residents of York and East York would feel the same. I'm fairly sure there's a substantial number in both boroughs who don't even know they live anywhere but Toronto (credit the convoluted borders and high levels of immigration for that). Wasn't the City of York discussing amalgamation with the old City of Toronto before the Harris era anyways?

The province might try and stop the city from breaking up, just as they ignored the City of Kawartha Lakes when it's residents voted narrowly to de-amalgamate in a 2003 plebiscite. The federal government really has no jurisdiction over the issue. They did not, for example, get involved (as far as I know) when several former municipalities in Montreal de-amalgamated back in 2006.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Metro Toronto, whose components were separated from the York County they once belonged to (though I can't recall when that became "binding"--when Metro was formed in '53? When it was reorganized in 1966? When York Region was set up in 1971?)

The 13 constituents of what formed metro were separated from York County at the same time Metro came into effect...Jan 01, 1954. The County Seat was moved from Toronto to Newmarket at the same time. The balance of York County (north of Steeles) remained the same until 1971, when it was tuned into a Regional Municipality. Although Metro Toronto was independent of York County, I believe it had some planning involvement with York County for a while.

And while Toronto was the County Seat of York County until 1953, Toronto was a single tier city, and its governance really had nothing to do with York County. Much like Toronto is the provincial capital, but has nothing to do with governing the province.

The reorganization in the 60's just merged some of the 13 lower tier constituents so that there were only 6.

It's only with Harris mega-amalgamation that everything was f'ed up

As bad as it was, it was only a fraction of what he had planned. He managed to eliminate 21 municipal governments by amalgamation, but the target was 440.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Wasn't the City of York discussing amalgamation with the old City of Toronto before the Harris era anyways?

I don't recall that...source?

This requires an act of provincial legislation...Toronto has no say in that.

The reorganization back in the 60's from 13 to 6 made sense at the time. But merging any of the 6 by the 90's wouldn't have made any sense, as the upper tier had taken over. Removing one lower tier council wouldn't have saved much money, or netted anybody any better services.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Even if Toronto was de-amalgamated, I wouldn't bet on it necessarily going back to the old six borough format especially if it was left to a referendum in each borough.

They don't exist. The only possibility would be the existing 4 community councils...none of which reflect boundaries of original
boroughs.

Toronto doesn't need to de-amalgamate...either into the pre-1998 situation or smaller single tier cities. It needs to become fiscally self-sufficient. We might want to stop electing people like Ford for a start first though.

 

[adma]

And while Toronto was the County Seat of York County until 1953, Toronto was a single tier city, and its governance really had nothing to do with York County. Much like Toronto is the provincial capital, but has nothing to do with governing the province.

But, it was still technically part of York County. Toronto was never "single tier" in the sense that Virginia's Independent Cities, or Baltimore, or St Louis, are "single tier". (And come to think of it, this discussion reminds me of how oddly anachronistic the notion of "counties" are in Ontario; sort of like "reeves" in lieu of "mayors", et al)

 

[freshcutgrass]

But, it was still technically part of York County.

The City of Toronto was NOT part of York County. Toronto was a separated city and independent of any "county" administration. York County was not an "upper tier" to the City of Toronto.

Under the Baldwin Act of 1849 (and later municipal acts), Ontario cities of a certain population size could become administratively separate from their counties, taking on the functions of counties within their boundaries.

Toronto was never "single tier" in the sense that Virginia's Independent Cities

In fact, Ontario and Virginia are indeed similar, as both derive their law of municipal organization from the medieval diocesan organization of the Church of England, by separating all municipalities of city class from the counties that contain them.

 

[adma]

The City of Toronto was NOT part of York County. Toronto was a separated city and independent of any "county" administration. York County was not an "upper tier" to the City of Toronto.

Under the Baldwin Act of 1849 (and later municipal acts), Ontario cities of a certain population size could become administratively separate from their counties, taking on the functions of counties within their boundaries.

Okay, then. Explain why, in municipal directories and censuses over the years, Ontario cities are listed as parts of counties. Unless you're claiming otherwise, in which may I offer, point blank: you're lying, or ignorant, or just too deep into the "administrative structure" pit. Sure, there may be a separation from a certain administrative standpoint: but looking beyond that to the extra-administrative stuff such as census definitions--no. Point blank, no.

In fact, Ontario and Virginia are indeed similar, as both derive their law of municipal organization from the medieval diocesan organization of the Church of England, by separating all municipalities of city class from the counties that contain them.

As per above: no they're not. For census purposes at the very least, Virginia's Independent Cities are listed as separate from any counties--the separation is much more marked there. If you look at maps of Virginia indicating county subdivisions, Independent Cities are shown as separate, county-like entities. Something that, at least prior to Mike Harris, was *not* the case in Ontario. Regardless of the arcana of administrative structure. Ontario. Cities. Were. Shown. And. Commonly. Understood. As. Parts. Of. Counties. And that included so-called "Separated Towns" (i.e. towns with city-like administrative structure) such as Smiths Falls.

And I know that; because going back to my childhood. I was a map geek, and a census geek. I know of what I speak.

Given that "parts of counties if necessary, but not necessarily parts of counties" circumstance, perhaps a stronger (if still imperfect) "census parallel" than Virginia might be how, in New York State, "cities" are politically separated from "towns" (i.e. townships) in a way that "villages" aren't. (It's imperfect because unlike in New York State, cities, towns, villages and townships have always been discrete entities in Ontario--the New York village, in some ways, is more akin to Ontario's one-time "police village" in their subservience to towns/townships.)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Okay, then. Explain why, in municipal directories and censuses over the years, Ontario cities are listed as parts of counties. Unless you're claiming otherwise, in which may I offer, point blank: you're lying, or ignorant, or just too deep into the "administrative structure" pit. Sure, there may be a separation from a certain administrative standpoint: but looking beyond that to the extra-administrative stuff such as census definitions--no. Point blank, no.



As per above: no they're not. For census purposes at the very least, Virginia's Independent Cities are listed as separate from any counties--the separation is much more marked there. If you look at maps of Virginia indicating county subdivisions, Independent Cities are shown as separate, county-like entities. Something that, at least prior to Mike Harris, was *not* the case in Ontario. Regardless of the arcana of administrative structure. Ontario. Cities. Were. Shown. And. Commonly. Understood. As. Parts. Of. Counties. And that included so-called "Separated Towns" (i.e. towns with city-like administrative structure) such as Smiths Falls.

And I know that; because going back to my childhood. I was a map geek, and a census geek. I know of what I speak.

Given that "parts of counties if necessary, but not necessarily parts of counties" circumstance, perhaps a stronger (if still imperfect) "census parallel" than Virginia might be how, in New York State, "cities" are politically separated from "towns" (i.e. townships) in a way that "villages" aren't. (It's imperfect because unlike in New York State, cities, towns, villages and townships have always been discrete entities in Ontario--the New York village, in some ways, is more akin to Ontario's one-time "police village" in their subservience to towns/townships.)

This.

 

[GenerationW]

Just to muddy the waters some more, according to birth certificates issued well into the 1960s (and possibly later), Toronto was listed as still being a part of York County.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Sure, there may be a separation from a certain administrative standpoint: but looking beyond that to the extra-administrative stuff such as census definitions--no. Point blank, no.

But the "administration standpoint" is all that matters, as a county exists for the purpose of being an administrative body....not just a geographical location. So to say that Toronto was geographically located "in" York county, when it was in fact, not "part" of York County renders the County to nothing more than a meaningless geographical location...not to mention illogical.

In fact, prior to Metro, many proposals were suggested. One of them (which the City of Toronto and Mimico did not support), was to enlarge York County to include the City of Toronto, using York County as the upper tier, and the subsequent constituents as the lower tiers.

Remember, York County was not crazy about any proposals that excluded it from the party, because it stood to lose about 80-90% of it's tax assessment base at the stroke of a pen. And that's exactly what happened when Metro was chosen as the model....everything outside of the old City of Toronto that was part of Metro was separated from York County, leaving it with little more than sparsely populated farmland north of Steeles. It jumped back of course, with the population growth of the GTA outside of Metro in the 60's, and eventually becoming the Region of York.

I suppose it is a good time to give credit where it is do...to another unique in North America body. Metro was not really a creation of the provincial government, but it's arm's-length creation...the OMB. It was the OMB that came up with the Metro model, after rejecting all of the other proposals on the table. If it were not for the involvement of the OMB, things may have turned out quite differently.

As per above: no they're not. For census purposes at the very least, Virginia's Independent Cities are listed as separate from any counties--the separation is much more marked there.

The separation is the same...not at all part of the county. The USA has over 3000 counties, and only 42 separated cities (39 of these are in Virginia). There are a few examples where city and county have merged into a consolidated city-county (like Philly or Denver)

In most of the USA, counties unite both their urban and rural constituents. City people are directly represented in county decision-making, and city people pay taxes to the county. In Ontario (and similarly in Virginia), this is not the case. They both believe in the premise (borrowed from 19th century British thinking) that urban and rural areas have different needs and interests, and should be administratively separated from each other. The roles of county administrations vary from county to county and state to state of course.

Interestingly enough, Metro did have some involvement with York County after it was separated. The 1953 Metropolitan Toronto Act actually established two bodies... the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto, and the Metropolitan Toronto Planning Board, which has jurisdiction over the territory of Metro and also a band of adjacent townships in neighbouring counties. This Board, which reported to Metro Council, was charged with developing an official plan for the region, providing planning assistance to municipalities, and exercising control over rural subdivision.

The purpose of this was not to further insult York County (or it's neighbouring counties around Metro) by letting Toronto stick its nose in their business....but because it was always understood that Metro's boundaries could expand, if need be.

It never did expand, because nobody ever envisioned just how much growth would occur in the GTA, outside of metro. It became apparent that it would be too big for a single municipality, be it a single tier or a two-tier. This is why the regional municipalities were created.

 

[adma]

But the "administration standpoint" is all that matters, as a county exists for the purpose of being an administrative body....not just a geographical location. So to say that Toronto was geographically located "in" York county, when it was in fact, not "part" of York County renders the County to nothing more than a meaningless geographical location...not to mention illogical.

Maybe it was "meaningless" from an administrative standpoint...but that's if you believe everything should, must, and has historically hinged upon the such administrative arcana. But to repeat--if it were as "meaningless" as you claim, Ontario. cities. would. have. been. depicted. as. independent. entities. on. maps. and. in. censuses. and. for. geographic. and. statistical. purposes. So, stop being such a freaking political scientist about this issue. And start being like me--a recovering childhood map geek, and census geek. Because obviously, you either weren't either of those; or else, you're of a post-Y2K-conditioned generation for whom county-based maps, like the comprehensive King's Highway network of pre-Harris-download days, are obscure archaisms. (Which is an interesting argument in and of itself; from a mass-cartographic standpoint, our increasingly "boundary-less" definition of space--sort of like that moment in the 1990s when Rand McNally atlases stopped depicting municipality boundaries, deferring to "urbanized area" blobs. And in today's Mapquest-to-Google-and-beyond universe, boundaries are, at most, an "option".)

I think analogous to this argument is the matter of counties in Massachussetts. Especially if you want to grasp how administrative definitions and geographic definitions are two things entirely...

Massachusetts has abolished eight of its fourteen county governments, leaving five counties with county-level local government (Barnstable, Bristol, Dukes, Norfolk, Plymouth) and one, Nantucket County, with combined county/city government. Vestigial judicial and law enforcement districts still follow the old county boundaries in the counties where county-level government has been disestablished, and the counties are still generally recognized as geographic entities if not political ones. Three counties have formed new county regional compacts to serve as a form of regional governance, and these include: Hampshire, Barnstable, and Franklin Counties.

 

[toraerach]

I don't recall that...source?

This requires an act of provincial legislation...Toronto has no say in that.

The reorganization back in the 60's from 13 to 6 made sense at the time. But merging any of the 6 by the 90's wouldn't have made any sense, as the upper tier had taken over. Removing one lower tier council wouldn't have saved much money, or netted anybody any better services.

I remember reading about it somewhere (perhaps on one of the several other amalgamation-related threads on UT), but I can't seem to find a source. Google is absolutely useless in finding anything related to the former City of York (blame the unimaginative folks who named at least two dozen things some variation on "York" in Toronto and area). If I'm not making the whole thing up, which I admit is a possibility, I believe the explanation for the proposed merger was the fact York was the poorest city in the province and couldn't afford a level of services comparable to other Metro municipalities. For example, their lack of community centres, etc. Removing one lower-tier council wouldn't have saved much money, but it would've provided a wider and wealthier tax base to shoulder the burden of city-level services in the poorest borough.

 

[adma]

Because obviously, you either weren't either of those; or else, you're of a post-Y2K-conditioned generation for whom county-based maps, like the comprehensive King's Highway network of pre-Harris-download days, are obscure archaisms.

Speaking of archaisms...

Ah, once upon a time, in pre-MapArt days, the new Official Ontario Road Map was an awaited annual ritual just like Santy Claus. Maybe their aesthetic apotheosis came in the mid-60s-to-early-70s, when the counties and districts were depicted in colours--and if city/town boundaries were depicted, it wasn't because they were "independent" or "separate", it's because they crossed the 10,000 population threshold!

Just to remind you of how cartography and psychology can transcend administrative minutiae--or at least, once did. (Though true, to our MapArt-and-onward-spoiled age, those old official maps now seem so primitively schematic...)

 

[freshcutgrass]

But to repeat--if it were as "meaningless" as you claim, Ontario. cities. would. have. been. depicted. as. independent. entities. on. maps. and. in. censuses. and. for. geographic. and. statistical. purposes.

Well, I hate to deal yet another blow to your fragile map-geek character, but they were in fact NOT depicted as you claim. Starting from the 1851 Ontario census, it clearly states Toronto City is NOT included in York County. Hamilton City is NOT included in Wentworth County. Kingston City is NOT included in Frontenac County. London City is NOT included in Middlesex County. And Bytown (Ottawa) is NOT included in Carleton County.

These cities were counted separately in the Census, as they were not part of a County, but were indeed themselves County equivalents.

Of course Toronto would be depicted on a map of York County, because York County surrounds it. I think you just made the mistake of thinking that it implied Toronto was "part" of York County, when it wasn't.

A County was not a greater delineation than a Separated City, which it could be a part of. A County and a Separated City were equivalent delineations. All municipal and county duties were performed within the Separated City, so there is no point of belonging to another County....it would be redundant.