News   Nov 22, 2024
 656     1 
News   Nov 22, 2024
 1.2K     5 
News   Nov 22, 2024
 3.1K     8 

When is enough transit infrastructure enough?

Interesting Chicago example but I don't think a million people lost in Chicago is even close to the downsizing that we could see in the next 50 years. The population of the US is reasonably young and Chicago doesn't have great existing infrastructure. Urbanization trends could prop up urban populations in select centres but what about declining and aging populations in Europe and East Asia where infrastructure coverage is good and densities reasonable? It's conceivable to envision situations where aging and population decline could cut trip generation in half (due to much smaller work force age residents even if the population decline isn't severe in total numbers). That's a double-whammy because you have less riders and a lower tax base.
 
I get what you are trying to say but that's the simplistic view that helped push the City further into a divide. The inner suburbs have various outstanding needs when it comes to transit both local, city wide, and the socio economic spin-off that surrounds integrated transit investment. Save for some councillors I believe we're on a far better track getting away from simple short term solutions or continuing pitting areas against each other.

The Province and City for the matter needs to prioritize relief and growth together at all times. At this stage the neglect is rampant in this massive amalgamated City. It has to be about moving forward with a common voice as we have seen start under Tory and begin to demand attention for the various needs across various areas as a priority. Continuing to pit areas on a priority relief vs. growth debate will continue to see yield the worst results possible. York region albeit all growth is running circles with some form of unity while Toronto continually beats up itself look to take the insufficient crumbs provided from other areas of the City. We just need to build extensively and not stop.
Bet let's be honest here. The complaints stopped in the late 1990's after the recession. It was Rob Ford that started all this again. Everything was supposed to be LRT other then the University extension until Rob came. The subways are not going to help Scarborough grow at all. The parts of Chicago people are talking about in this thread have subway access and they are still bad. You need more then subways for redevelopment in lower income areas.
 
Bet let's be honest here. The complaints stopped in the late 1990's after the recession. It was Rob Ford that started all this again. Everything was supposed to be LRT other then the University extension until Rob came. The subways are not going to help Scarborough grow at all. The parts of Chicago people are talking about in this thread have subway access and they are still bad. You need more then subways for redevelopment in lower income areas.

This historical recap is not true. Scarborough council requested the BDL extension during David Millers first term only to have it shot it down in favour of a poorly designed LRT with added transfers and a neglect grade separation throughout Sheppard and Eglinton/Kingston rd. Council got on board as we had to build something for its residents and needed to work with this admin in other areas as the neglect was steep and with no Central Mayoral voice speaking for Scarboroughs future the poorly thought-out LRT plan went ahead. Surprised it didn't get called out earlier but make no mistake Ford spoke for the majority of residents to connect our Centre and how quickly the tide changed at every level from every political stripe was a good indicator this was well known.

The subway loop is going to be great, as well as LRT, BRT surrounding/feeding in and GO RER. Far better transit legacy for the Centre than the RT and the subsequent transfer on Sheppard /maintaining the poor alignment of the RT and transfer with Transit City. Its one very key piece of a larger network in the City.
 
Last edited:
This historical recap is not true. Scarborough council equested the BDL extension during David Millers first term only to have it shot it down in favour of a poorly designed LRT with added transfers and a neglect grade separation throughout Sheppard and Eglinton/Kingston rd. Council got on board as we had to build something for its residents and needed to work with this admin in other areas as the neglect was steep and with no Central Mayoral voice speaking for Scarboroughs future the poorly thought-out LRT plan went ahead. Surprised it didn't get called out earlier but make no mistake Ford spoke for the majority of residents to connect our Centre and how quickly the tide changed at every level from every political stripe was a good indicator this was well known.

The subway loop is going to be great, as well as LRT, BRT surrounding/feeding in and GO RER. Far better transit legacy for the Centre than the RT and the subsequent transfer on Sheppard /maintaining the poor alignment of the RT and transfer with Transit City. Its one very key piece of a larger network in the City.
There was no scarborough council during millers term. Perhaps you are thinking of the 1980s when network 2011 got canceled. And OneCity, I remember when you were for only the Bloor Danforth extension., back when there was zero chance sheppard was getting built. But again, the system will be enough when all the subways and all day service on GO gets built.
 
There was no scarborough council during millers term. Perhaps you are thinking of the 1980s when network 2011 got canceled. And OneCity, I remember when you were for only the Bloor Danforth extension., back when there was zero chance sheppard was getting built. But again, the system will be enough when all the subways and all day service on GO gets built.

Not really sure where you are trying to go with this post? But ill take the time to shed some light as it seems what is obvious to me and for whatever reasons is not quite clear

1.. "Scarborough council" - After amalgamation with Toronto, community councils were formed to process issues considered local to their community.[61] Scarborough's community council, made up of Scarborough's ten councillors, meets once a month at the former offices of the city of Scarborough just south of the Scarborough Town Centre. ...

My point and fact was the Scarborough councillors were heavily pushing for the BDL extension to Miller. There are better references which speak of Scarborough councillors requesting the subway in Millers term Ill have to dig them up if you still really have any doubt?

Here's a good one to dispel the notion that subways was a new Ford phenomena : http://www.pressreader.com/canada/toronto-star/20051027/282093452134773 Ironic to see David Soknaki of all councillors asking residents to sign a petition for the subway during Millers years. There is certainly far larger subway roots here than what is told to the average outside resident. Like I said all Leaders from all stripes and basically all Scarborough politicians at all levels knew what to do when Ford ran with it at the front of his campaign. Not really discussed but Fords opponents in Giambrone and Smitherman both ran directly on the subway extension to SCC.

Heres a bit about the review in Millers term that spun into his Transit City
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5115.shtml "The question of extending the RT did come back into play starting in 2005, as the TTC calculated that the Scarborough RT was ten years away from requiring significant renovations in order to keep operating. With the Mark I equipment nearly obsolete and not available for production from transit vehicle maker Bombardier, the TTC considered what would be needed to keep trains operating beyond 2015. An extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway was expensive, and upgrading the line to handle Mark II ICTS vehicles was also costly. When the TTC compared these options to converting the line to conventional LRT operation....

2. Ive always supported/defended the SSE (moreso on the RT corridor) as a line. But as a network ive supported any plan that connects the Centre to the existing infrastructure and in conjunction with a better detailed overall plan on all other routes. The sheppard subway would have been proceeding had council agreed to Ford-McGuinty SCC connection to the Eglinton Crosstown as Sheppard subway was the other half of that agreement. Not sure I understand what you mean with the "system will be enough" We are currently designing BRT, LRT local feeders, local/core with the subway and GO RER spread out over many areas serving many differing needs. A very detailed overall plan for the entire City is now moving forward and the funds are being directed in the right place, while I personally don't agree with all the details/alignments it still meets various needs and most importantly its a plan that will be supported by the residents who are directly impacted the most and we can finally move forward.
 
Last edited:
No really sure where you are trying to go with this post? But ill take the time to shed some light as it seems what is obvious to me and for whatever reasons is not quite clear

1.. "Scarborough council" - After amalgamation with Toronto, community councils were formed to process issues considered local to their community.[61] Scarborough's community council, made up of Scarborough's ten councillors, meets once a month at the former offices of the city of Scarborough just south of the Scarborough Town Centre. ...

My point and fact was the Scarborough councillors were heavily pushing for the BDL extension to Miller. There are better references which speak of Scarborough councillors requesting the subway in Millers term Ill have to dig them up if you still really have any doubt?

Here's a good one to dispel the notion that subways was a new Ford phenomena : http://www.pressreader.com/canada/toronto-star/20051027/282093452134773 Ironic to see David Soknaki of all councillors asking residents to sign a petition for the subway during Millers years. There is certainly far larger subway roots here than what is told to the average outside resident. Like I said all Leaders from all stripes and basically all Scarborough politicians at all levels knew what to do when Ford ran with it at the front of his campaign. Not really discussed but Fords opponents in Giambrone and Smitherman both ran directly on the subway extension to SCC.

Heres a bit about the review in Millers term that spun into his Transit City
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5115.shtml "The question of extending the RT did come back into play starting in 2005, as the TTC calculated that the Scarborough RT was ten years away from requiring significant renovations in order to keep operating. With the Mark I equipment nearly obsolete and not available for production from transit vehicle maker Bombardier, the TTC considered what would be needed to keep trains operating beyond 2015. An extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway was expensive, and upgrading the line to handle Mark II ICTS vehicles was also costly. When the TTC compared these options to converting the line to conventional LRT operation....

2. Ive always supported/defended the SSE (moreso on the RT corridor) as a line. But as a network ive supported any plan that connects the Centre to the existing infrastructure and in conjunction with a better detailed overall plan on all other routes. The sheppard subway would have been proceeding had council agreed to Ford-McGuinty SCC connection to the Eglinton Crosstown as Sheppard subway was the other half of that agreement. Not sure I understand what you mean with the "system will be enough" We are currently designing BRT, LRT local feeders, local/core with the subway and GO RER spread out over many areas serving many differing needs. A very detailed overall plan for the entire City is now moving forward and the funds are being directed in the right place, while I personally don't agree with all the details/alignments it still meets various needs and most importantly its a plan that will be supported by the residents who are directly impacted the most and we can finally move forward.
I was answering the genetal thread question when will it be enough. But i digress.
 
We're accustomed to lamenting the state of Toronto's public transit. But is it fair to say once projects in progress are completed we'll be in great shape? I'm assuming DRL is about to be approved. Seems to me a tremendous amount is happening. Only thing missing is high-speed rail to KW.

This is when enough transit infrastructure is enough...



But at the rate we're going, we're probably a hundred years off schedule from completion!
 
@Hopkins123 I would make the DRL alignment via Don Mills and don't forget all the LRT+BRT on the suburban arterials.
 
This is when enough transit infrastructure is enough...



But at the rate we're going, we're probably a hundred years off schedule from completion!
I don't think just having 2 longs lines downtown will be enough. Is there any evidence that shorter lines (only in downtown, requiring a transfer to go to suburb) perform better or worse than lines that go Suburb > Downtown > Suburb?
 
@Hopkins123 I would make the DRL alignment via Don Mills and don't forget all the LRT+BRT on the suburban arterials.

Yeah, I was just toying with how a Victoria Park alignment would look like on a system map per the proposal that floated from the DRL thread. Don Mills definitely is the better corridor to use though, I agree.

I didn't want the map to be too cluttered but I also envision BRT routes linking the far ends of the subway lines together, particularly a Hwy 27 Line from Long Branch to Humber College Stn.
 
Its a real shame that interlining the Subway and GO Trains isn't possible because we just had to use a non-standard track gauge. The BD and DRL's would be perfect contenders for it.
 
^This is why I have always thought the DRL should use catenary subway cars so the tunnel could be used as why by RER and expansion north of Eglinton would be far easier as it could basically use the existing Richmond Hill line with upgrades.
 
^This is why I have always thought the DRL should use catenary subway cars so the tunnel could be used as why by RER and expansion north of Eglinton would be far easier as it could basically use the existing Richmond Hill line with upgrades.
When they looked at options for the Gardiner East - by the limited scope, they precluded several other options (buried, above railway, etc.).
When they planned only the DRL South (Pape to Queen), they precluded consideration of catenary subway.
 

Back
Top