Towered
Senior Member
Pantalone is such an out-of-touch old idiot. I'm glad he's running for mayor so that finally that ward will get a new councillor - maybe someone who is actually progressive.
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dob467
Active Member
So what's the solution here? I'm thinking at a minimum distinguishing between a restaurant and a bar would help. Groups like this local residents org seem to be on the right track - http://queenbeac.wordpress.com/bar-concentration-around-queenbeaconsfield-faq/
The city really needs to start addressing this issue. I was a huge fan of Ossington when bars like Swetty Betty's first set up, but now the area's like clubland from Thursday to Friday.
The idea that this is what happens in big cities is equally as short sighted as the city's response. What does everyone think should be done??
The city really needs to start addressing this issue. I was a huge fan of Ossington when bars like Swetty Betty's first set up, but now the area's like clubland from Thursday to Friday.
The idea that this is what happens in big cities is equally as short sighted as the city's response. What does everyone think should be done??
urbandreamer
recession proof
131 Ossington Av: Potential eyesore?
Saw this proposal last night while bar hopping (WQW at night is unbearable nowadays, as is Ossington. Naco Gallery Cafe, Henhouse, Red Lantern and the Garrison (and maybe several Parkdale bars) on Dundas are the only worthwhile places these days...
) Looks appalling:
Saw this proposal last night while bar hopping (WQW at night is unbearable nowadays, as is Ossington. Naco Gallery Cafe, Henhouse, Red Lantern and the Garrison (and maybe several Parkdale bars) on Dundas are the only worthwhile places these days...
) Looks appalling:
taal
Senior Member
Saw this proposal last night while bar hopping (WQW at night is unbearable nowadays, as is Ossington. Naco Gallery Cafe, Henhouse, Red Lantern and the Garrison (and maybe several Parkdale bars) on Dundas are the only worthwhile places these days...
@ night == unbearable in WQW, why?
Not that I disagree but what are your exact reasons?
urbandreamer
recession proof
^perfect if you're 19-25 I suppose and into drunken brawls, douchebags, sleezy types etc. (Roughly Ossington to Dufferin mostly, perhaps the Gladstone and the Beaver are still okay.)
taal
Senior Member
That's just about the same problem I have, I do find it cleans up a 'bit' closer to Gladstone. It's a lot busier then I ever recall it (given it's winter now) ... it sounds like a good thing but I'm not too sure, as you pointed it out, it's not always the most comfortable walk. Not that I've ever had any problems with anyone but still ...
The problem is I really only see it getting worse over time
js97
Senior Member
isn't it a bit of an elitist attitude that some of you guys are taking? The real problem is the fact that they have reduced the capacity of the club district. It's all overflow from that area. 40,000 visitors to the core don't just disappear! Someone reopen peel pub/philthies.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Elitist? Never. Just calling out the douches!
urbandreamer
recession proof
Better than a parking lot, but still a huge missed opportunity for greatness (and density) in Parkdale:
A few doors west, another gallery opens:
A few doors west, another gallery opens:
Towered
Senior Member
Geezus, looks like something out of 1990. Horrible.
Where is that lot?
Where is that lot?
urbandreamer
recession proof
urbandreamer
recession proof
Oh that thing on Ossington has been revealed, and it's not too bad looking afterall. Whew.
4 april 2010:
In Parkdale, the old apartment building that's being gutted:
4 april 2010:
In Parkdale, the old apartment building that's being gutted:
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dob467
Active Member
A good overview of the problems with current restaurant / bar labels. And a good example of how Pantalone certainly isn't to blame for trying to find some sort of solution in the midst of very messy regulations. It'd be great for the city and those running for election to have a grown up conversation about how best to accomodate bars and restaurants in residential areas. Simply saying we live in a big city, get over it, is a pretty naive response. As is trying to create club districts. Can't we have a good balance in all neighbourhoods?
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/790742--when-is-a-restaurant-really-just-a-bar
When is a restaurant really just a bar?
April 06, 2010
Patty Winsa
{{GA_Article.Images.Alttext$}}
Queen Street West establishments have presented a host of noisy problems for residents. (Feb. 19, 2010)
TONY BOCK/TORONTO STAR
You'd think it would be a good thing when prostitutes and crack addicts move out of a neighbourhood and a boutique hotel moves in.
But when the beautifully refurbished Drake Hotel opened in 2004, at the corner of Queen St. W. and Beaconsfield Ave., neighbours along a four-block strip of Queen found they had traded one set of problems for another.
Seedier elements were pushed out by new restaurants that subsequently took over vacant storefronts, and by the reopening of the likewise-renovated Gladstone Hotel. But then residents found themselves pushing their way through crowds of unruly patrons cluttering the Queen St. sidewalks between Dovercourt and Gladstone.
"Six years ago, this neighbourhood would be completely unrecognizable. There were more crackheads and prostitutes on the street, but they were quiet," said resident and activist Misha Glouberman. Now when restaurants and bars close, "there's a lot of noise, issues with vandalism and people peeing and vomiting in the doorways."
At a community meeting last May attended by about 50 people, residents complained of cigarette smoke drifting from patios and traffic congestion on what used to be quiet residential streets. They said at closing time patrons are drunk and noisy. And residents said there were just too many bars.
A city report on Queen West found many establishments licensed as restaurants were operating as bars, pushing back tables and chairs and serving more alcohol than food.
And that presents a Catch-22 for Toronto: How can a city that licenses only restaurants and entertainment facilities restrict bars?
Toronto hasn't had a "tavern" classification on the books since 1992. It was deleted after a change in provincial regulations in 1990, when the Ontario Liquor Licensing Board – now the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario – said establishments applying for liquor licences must offer a menu with enough food to make up a light meal.
That meant nearly every establishment had a kitchen, making it difficult for the city to distinguish a restaurant serving alcohol from a bar serving food. In current city bylaw parlance, "restaurant" now covers both.
Queen West residents asked if the city could redefine bars and cap their numbers, but were told it would be too difficult since every establishment is required to sell food.
As an alternative, staff recommendations passed by council in January limited the size of new restaurants so they wouldn't attract large crowds. They prohibited new dance floors and disc jockeys, and restricted new rooftop or rear-yard patios.
Councillor Gord Perks, whose Parkdale-High Park ward is west of the strip, and Ward 18 Councillor Adam Giambrone want the city to find a way to regulate bars. They've asked bylaw staff to come up with a city-wide definition for "bars" that could be used to limit their concentration.
"I don't mind a residential neighbourhood with a restaurant or two and a pub," said Perks. "But a string of pubs with a guy who has a restaurant with 350 capacity and never has any tables and barely any food? That's not a healthy part of a neighbourhood."
The problem is that since the regulation change, "basically, a bar doesn't exist" as a legal entity in Toronto, says Lynda MacDonald, a community planning manager for the city. "We have two definitions: a restaurant, which is for the service of food while (patrons) are sitting down. And an entertainment facility, which includes nightclubs, places where you dance and drink and go for an evening out."
Unlike some other large North American cities, Toronto has no way to limit the number of restaurants, or restaurants operating as bars, in a specific area. New York City, for instance, has density laws that stipulate a public hearing must be held if there is a new application for a liquor licence within 500 feet of three other licensed establishments.
Perks says the regulatory changes have created a "jurisdictional nightmare" because the alcohol and gaming commission no longer recognizes distinctions between different kinds of establishments.
In the early '90s, the agency, in consultation with municipalities, removed the old licence categories such as "dining lounge," which referred to a restaurant where all types of liquor could be served; "dining room," which meant beer or wine could be served with food; and "lounge," which allowed liquor to be served without food.
One reason that was removed was to allow municipalities, rather than the province, to decide what type of establishment should go where, said Lisa Murray, spokeswoman for the alcohol and gaming commission.
Perks says "if the (AGCO) would give us better tools to control where liquor licences go, we could be a lot more flexible about where restaurants go. That's the conundrum."
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/790742--when-is-a-restaurant-really-just-a-bar
When is a restaurant really just a bar?
April 06, 2010
Patty Winsa
{{GA_Article.Images.Alttext$}}
Queen Street West establishments have presented a host of noisy problems for residents. (Feb. 19, 2010)
TONY BOCK/TORONTO STAR
You'd think it would be a good thing when prostitutes and crack addicts move out of a neighbourhood and a boutique hotel moves in.
But when the beautifully refurbished Drake Hotel opened in 2004, at the corner of Queen St. W. and Beaconsfield Ave., neighbours along a four-block strip of Queen found they had traded one set of problems for another.
Seedier elements were pushed out by new restaurants that subsequently took over vacant storefronts, and by the reopening of the likewise-renovated Gladstone Hotel. But then residents found themselves pushing their way through crowds of unruly patrons cluttering the Queen St. sidewalks between Dovercourt and Gladstone.
"Six years ago, this neighbourhood would be completely unrecognizable. There were more crackheads and prostitutes on the street, but they were quiet," said resident and activist Misha Glouberman. Now when restaurants and bars close, "there's a lot of noise, issues with vandalism and people peeing and vomiting in the doorways."
At a community meeting last May attended by about 50 people, residents complained of cigarette smoke drifting from patios and traffic congestion on what used to be quiet residential streets. They said at closing time patrons are drunk and noisy. And residents said there were just too many bars.
A city report on Queen West found many establishments licensed as restaurants were operating as bars, pushing back tables and chairs and serving more alcohol than food.
And that presents a Catch-22 for Toronto: How can a city that licenses only restaurants and entertainment facilities restrict bars?
Toronto hasn't had a "tavern" classification on the books since 1992. It was deleted after a change in provincial regulations in 1990, when the Ontario Liquor Licensing Board – now the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario – said establishments applying for liquor licences must offer a menu with enough food to make up a light meal.
That meant nearly every establishment had a kitchen, making it difficult for the city to distinguish a restaurant serving alcohol from a bar serving food. In current city bylaw parlance, "restaurant" now covers both.
Queen West residents asked if the city could redefine bars and cap their numbers, but were told it would be too difficult since every establishment is required to sell food.
As an alternative, staff recommendations passed by council in January limited the size of new restaurants so they wouldn't attract large crowds. They prohibited new dance floors and disc jockeys, and restricted new rooftop or rear-yard patios.
Councillor Gord Perks, whose Parkdale-High Park ward is west of the strip, and Ward 18 Councillor Adam Giambrone want the city to find a way to regulate bars. They've asked bylaw staff to come up with a city-wide definition for "bars" that could be used to limit their concentration.
"I don't mind a residential neighbourhood with a restaurant or two and a pub," said Perks. "But a string of pubs with a guy who has a restaurant with 350 capacity and never has any tables and barely any food? That's not a healthy part of a neighbourhood."
The problem is that since the regulation change, "basically, a bar doesn't exist" as a legal entity in Toronto, says Lynda MacDonald, a community planning manager for the city. "We have two definitions: a restaurant, which is for the service of food while (patrons) are sitting down. And an entertainment facility, which includes nightclubs, places where you dance and drink and go for an evening out."
Unlike some other large North American cities, Toronto has no way to limit the number of restaurants, or restaurants operating as bars, in a specific area. New York City, for instance, has density laws that stipulate a public hearing must be held if there is a new application for a liquor licence within 500 feet of three other licensed establishments.
Perks says the regulatory changes have created a "jurisdictional nightmare" because the alcohol and gaming commission no longer recognizes distinctions between different kinds of establishments.
In the early '90s, the agency, in consultation with municipalities, removed the old licence categories such as "dining lounge," which referred to a restaurant where all types of liquor could be served; "dining room," which meant beer or wine could be served with food; and "lounge," which allowed liquor to be served without food.
One reason that was removed was to allow municipalities, rather than the province, to decide what type of establishment should go where, said Lisa Murray, spokeswoman for the alcohol and gaming commission.
Perks says "if the (AGCO) would give us better tools to control where liquor licences go, we could be a lot more flexible about where restaurants go. That's the conundrum."
Towered
Senior Member
Just another heap of bureaucratic nonsense designed to perpetually expand the city's civil service with people pretending to do work and getting paid through the nose for their useless efforts.
js97
Senior Member
It's too bad that people aren't appreciative more of what the investment of these businesses have done for the neighbourhood. Property values have doubled, it's a lot more safe, convinient.
Gord perks needs to see the light instead of succumbing to whiny residents that have forgotten parkdale of the past.
Gord perks needs to see the light instead of succumbing to whiny residents that have forgotten parkdale of the past.
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