We HATE Toronto!

[urbanboom]

That's an interesting observation, I've been to London and would never think to compare the two cities. What exactly was it that made you make that comparison? It certainly isn't our expansive subway system... lol

I find both cities to be very varied and multicultural. There are many different ethnic neighbourhoods, that aren't really swallowed or shunned like the way they are in the US or France.

Toronto's use of brick as well as some of Toronto's historic districts (ie. Distilery, St. Lawrence and even Rosedale) borrow much from British architecture and city planning. Toronto never really got all of England's "Garden City" movement, but you can sure see many obvious traces of it.

But if you look closely London is a very modern city, much in the way Toronto is. London has managed to market itself as the new world headquarters of finance and other companies, this has brought it forward and pumping, much in the way that finance influences Toronto.

 

[JasonParis]

Toronto and London's "hipster"/indie rock scenes are also very interchangeable in their attitude and depth. Not that that's something your average traveller would notice, but it's still one of those subtle things that make me feel "Toronto" when I'm sitting in a bar in north London.

 

[oreoshack]

Buddy, I really think you over-analyse things. I saw the same joke: it was about how Toronto (or Canada) was similar to New York (or the US) but without all the crazy antics of their show-business lifestyles. The joke had nothing to do with Toronto, it was about the craziness of New York (that show is full of them). After all, how many US viewers would get a Toronto Multiculturalism joke? Btw, it was Steve Martin, not Alec Baldwin in that segment.

first of all, i LOVE 30 Rock, everyone should go and buy the 1st and 2nd seasons. you will fall in love with tina fey's liz lemon.

and second, the line was "...toronto is just like new york, but without all THIS stuff.." not THE stuff. steve martin (valeure) was referring to her show, 30 rockefeller square. the show was not making a pass at toronto, in fact im sure tina fey who writes the majority of the jokes for the show absolutely loves canada, seeing how she would be so liberal.

and anywho, great thread, really enjoying reading it.

 

[adma]

Toronto's use of brick as well as some of Toronto's historic districts (ie. Distilery, St. Lawrence and even Rosedale) borrow much from British architecture and city planning. Toronto never really got all of England's "Garden City" movement, but you can sure see many obvious traces of it.

And this may be a contentious statement, but there's even a historically Toronto/London (or more generically Toronto/British) parallel in the reputation for clumsily conservative ad hoc dumpiness--especially if one views things through the prism of mid-c20 architectural modernism, where current happenings in London might have been viewed as shambling, backward, reactionary, and haltingly-incremental-at-best compared to what was happening across the pond. And even when things loosened up by the time of the 1951 Festival Of Britain, the new spirit was viewed as too flimsy and meagre and coulda-been-so-much-better, with parallels to the UT perspective on anything from today's Chedingtonista fussiness to today's Jack Diamond "barrenness"...

 

[vinny_the_hack]

I recently saw the aforementioned snippet of 30 Rock in the form of a TV ad. I liked the line so much, I dashed to my PC to google it and that's how I found this thread. My opinion is that we can't possibly know whether the writer meant to insult Toronto or praise it (or indeed New York). If I had to guess, I would lean toward a fond ribbing--sort of like long-time friends might do.

In any case, the quote reminded me, and I wouldn't be at all surprised, if it was stolen (and tweaked) from the late, great Peter Ustinov, who once said in a very generous way that "Toronto is New York run by the Swiss." In both cases, the point is made that our great city lacks the excitement and electricity of New York, but it also suggests that this may, in fact, be a good thing. Put another way, Toronto is the middle ground between fun and danger.

 

[Tewder]

Vinny, part of the beauty of the line is that it is so vague and one can spin it in various directions. At the end of the day I suppose it's a matter of how you interpret 'stuff'. Some here see it as negative stuff (stress, fast pace, expense, pressure to succeed and keep up, etc.) which means that Toronto is supposedly delightfully devoid of those things. Others see stuff as something positive (New York is important, centre of the universe, exciting, happening) which would imply that Toronto is not those things. My sense is the joke is probably a bit of both, a back-handed compliment/jibe on the part of expat Cannuck SNLers.

 

[lawsond]

"Cheap cholesterol medicine from Canada. A Paris Hilton film released only in Canada. Come with me to Canada… Toronto is just like New York but without all the stuff."

Many show bizzy Americans - especially New Yorkers - are bitter about the enormous success and influence of TIFF. It drives New Yorkers crazy that Toronto gets all the glamour and star "stuff" and they just get that little New York festival that nobody cares about.

Read the New Yorker - they often make reference to Toronto and its varied "stuff" in a very positive light except for the odd huffy, negative review of how crass and huge TIFF has become.

As for the joke, I really couldn't make sense of it. Maybe the script originally said "shit" and they had to substitute "stuff"..thus rendering it useless.

 

[allabootmatt]

There has indeed been some very good publicity for TO in some of the New York press in the last few years, in particular the enormous Times Magazine piece on the Toronto music scene and the recent profile of Naomi Klein in The New Yorker. Paul Goldberger has also written very positively about Toronto architecture.

I would much, much, much rather Toronto be known as a place where things of such cultural import happen, rather than as, say, some Lastmanesque confection of acquaria and mid-brow spectacle.

As for New Yorkers being jealous of TIFF though...not so sure.

 

[Tewder]

... and isn't it really just the same sort of gentle ribbing humour you get on the Daily show or Colbert Report? Daily says the President visited Canada first because he can screw up there and it doesn't matter (Ottawa/Iowa), that Canada is the "diplomatic equivalent of a pre-season game". Americans view Canadians as 'hosers', even if somewhat liberal, progressive ones. Montreal gets a little more attention because of its French flavour, and Vancouver will surely fare well if it does a good job at showcasing itself during the Olympics, but aside from a few blips of minor interest among some specialized groups Toronto hasn't really been able to impress itself into the collective conscience of the American public and cliches continue to reign.

 

[urbanboom]

I find this attitude of having to "impress" the americans really pathetic. Can't we just accept that we have it pretty good whether or not they accept it in their popular culture?

 

[syn]

Positive, negative, who cares? It's just a joke.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Forget trying to impress Americans....we can't even impress the rest of Canada.

And what for?

I'm slightly biased having grown up here but southern Ontario is the single-greatest part of this bloody planet, bar none, forget the critics, love it or move to Vaughan (where I'll never have to see you), etc.

Seriously. Perhaps this place can be our little secret?


Though, apparently we're plenty impressive for 90% of the world (see: immigration)


and "we" hate Toronto because "we" are a bunch of self-concious and pretentious folk with some serious inferiority-complex issues and not cause this place is particularly dislikeable

 

[jenny_zhang]

Though, apparently we're plenty impressive for 90% of the world (see: immigration)

Not really. Most of the immigrants come here now because they can basically continue living as they did back home except with the added benefits that being in a Western nation provide. I'm sure that if Europe was as open to near-colonization as Canada is, immigrants would all want to go there.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

Not really. Most of the immigrants come here now because they can basically continue living as they did back home except with the added benefits that being in a Western nation provide. I'm sure that if Europe was as open to near-colonization as Canada is, immigrants would all want to go there.

That's a really big if.

Open in the sense of open immigration rules, maybe. But Canadians are generally positive about immigrants. For the most part, we get along pretty well and I don't think it's quite the same elsewhere.

 

[Tewder]

Not really. Most of the immigrants come here now because they can basically continue living as they did back home except with the added benefits that being in a Western nation provide. I'm sure that if Europe was as open to near-colonization as Canada is, immigrants would all want to go there.

There is definitely 'some' truth here. Canada is an immigration 'pussy' and the world knows it. It is unfortunate because it sort of undermines the value of Canadian residence or citizenship when its handed out to anybody like jellybeans.

... and does anybody buy the 'we shouldn't give a crap what the world thinks of us' posture? It smacks of insecurity to me, protesting too much, rather than understanding what the preconceptions may be but being able to laugh at them and put them in perspective.