Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[ShonTron]

I’d just build the LRT on the old CN Fergus Sub alignment next to CP between Galt and Preston, and just skip Eagle Street and Hespeler Road. You get a faster, straighter, cheaper alignment.

But it’d never happen given its Cambridge.

 

[crs1026]

I'm a bit skeptical about claims of how LRT generate development (correlation ≠ causation). How much development can be attracted by simply upzoning Hespeler Rd and removed the parking requirements?

I don’t follow Cambridge closely, but my Cambridge friends have been telling me that they are getting midrise development north of Downtown Cambridge for as long as my Kitchener friends have been telling me that they are getting 2WAD GO trains. It may be chicken and egg, but LRT is a reasonable proposition, and Hespeller Road has the surface area for lots of good, walkable, street-building density.

A provincial edict requiring municipalities to meet their growth needs through densification, as opposed to sprawl, would sure make the difference. Oh, wait…..

- Paul

 

[duffo]

The CP Toyota line is in a whole different category than the CN's Waterloo Spur. (Which, by the way, is owned by the Region). I can't imagine CP agreeing to share it with a LRT - it's used to serve Toyota with auto racks, and the timing of that plus the technical conflicts would be much greater.

But I agree with building the Cambridge portion as a separate discrete line. Delaying the Fairway - Preston portion for a decade or more saves a couple $B which would offset the added cost of a OMSF in the south end..... and servicing the whole line from Northfield seems a bit inefficient in itself anyways.

- Paul

Build the Cambridge portion of the line with a small satellite OMSF, and use the CP tracks for transporting Cambridge ION trains to the Northfield OMSF overnight when they need more significant maintenance... Maybe this could be accompanied by an express bus service from Preston Station to downtown Kitchener and infrequent (like half-hourly?) through-running on the CP line.

Considering the significant run-time to get from Downtown Galt to Downtown Kitchener or Waterloo on the planned full ION builtout, this may be an improvement..

 

[DKsan]

A provincial edict requiring municipalities to meet their growth needs through densification, as opposed to sprawl, would sure make the difference. Oh, wait…..

- Paul

Waterloo Region fought off an OLT case years ago from developers wanting to sprawl outside their Regional Plan's Countryside Line. Density and intensification has been the regional and municipal mandates for a decade now. It's part of the central tentant of the ION project to begin with.

 

[NoahB]

Waterloo Region fought off an OLT case years ago from developers wanting to sprawl outside their Regional Plan's Countryside Line. Density and intensification has been the regional and municipal mandates for a decade now. It's part of the central tentant of the ION project to begin with.

OLT usually follows the provincial plans but the conditions have changed. Recent provincial legislation has forced municipalities to expand urban boundaries to include nearby farmlands I believe.

Cambridge farms under threat from province's push for urban sprawl

The number of Cambridge farms, which has doubled in five years, could soon follow the Canada-wide decline as urban expansion kicks into overdrive

www.cambridgetoday.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/province-ford-orders-urban-boundary-expansion-greenbelt-1.6641947#:~:text=The%20province%27s%20decision%20was%20posted,when%20debating%20expansion%20last%20year.

 

[allengeorge]

OLT usually follows the provincial plans but the conditions have changed. Recent provincial legislation has forced municipalities to expand urban boundaries to include nearby farmlands I believe.

Cambridge farms under threat from province's push for urban sprawl

The number of Cambridge farms, which has doubled in five years, could soon follow the Canada-wide decline as urban expansion kicks into overdrive

www.cambridgetoday.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/province-ford-orders-urban-boundary-expansion-greenbelt-1.6641947#:~:text=The%20province%27s%20decision%20was%20posted,when%20debating%20expansion%20last%20year.

Indeed. The latest Ontario growth plans have backpedaled the focus on density (outside of transit areas) and are actively encouraging sprawl. Deeply upsetting.

 

[Sunnyside]

Indeed. The latest Ontario growth plans have backpedaled the focus on density (outside of transit areas) and are actively encouraging sprawl. Deeply upsetting.

Off-topic, but can municipalities set their own greenfield density targets? The provincial requirements have been declining since the Liberals made it 70-80 pp/ha, but if municipalities enforce such densities instead then sprawl can be mitigated. I think a lot of the culture around curbing sprawl has made its way to municipalities outside the 905, especially in Waterloo, Hamilton, etc. so this might be popular.

More on-topic… I think a Cambridge iON could potentially be a seperate service disconnected from the existing line. I’d propose a local LRT running from Hespeler (the town) to downtown Galt. I would then save connecting the two LRTs for a future phase that could also involve speeding up the slowest sections on the KW line- an “express” LRT. Fixes the speed issues of today that would hold back full Waterloo-Cambridge trips if built as proposed. Also distributes the cost over a longer timeframe.

Although, it is seriously worth asking if this money be better spent on creating two tram-train “interurban” lines between Kitchener-Guelph and Cambridge-Guelph along the available rail corridors.

 

[crs1026]

Off-topic, but can municipalities set their own greenfield density targets? The provincial requirements have been declining since the Liberals made it 70-80 pp/ha, but if municipalities enforce such densities instead then sprawl can be mitigated. I think a lot of the culture around curbing sprawl has made its way to municipalities outside the 905, especially in Waterloo, Hamilton, etc. so this might be popular.

Some Southern Ontario municipalities have done just this, committing to density targets and restrictions on sprawl that exceed provincial requirement right up to meeting virtually all of their growth through infill only.

The problem is that in a legal environment where municipalities are creations of the province, there is lots of room for municipal decisions to be eroded either by provincal direction or through litigation. The province of late has shown its hand and is clearly willing to undercut such densification- and for no apparent good reason other than just to make rich developers (who seem to be Ford's closest friends and role models) richer.

Although, it is seriously worth asking if this money be better spent on creating two tram-train “interurban” lines between Kitchener-Guelph and Cambridge-Guelph along the available rail corridors.

There is always that appeal but one has to be careful not to let past precedents - or pure nostalgia - override good decisionmaking. Those old rail corridors exist, but they don't really go where transit ought to be routed going forward, and the cost of building to a co-existing rail-transit corridor might approach the cost of building new dedicated LRT, if the right routes are chosen.

- Paul

 

[Sunnyside]

Some Southern Ontario municipalities have done just this, committing to density targets and restrictions on sprawl that exceed provincial requirement right up to meeting virtually all of their growth through infill only.

The problem is that in a legal environment where municipalities are creations of the province, there is lots of room for municipal decisions to be eroded either by provincal direction or through litigation. The province of late has shown its hand and is clearly willing to undercut such densification- and for no apparent good reason other than just to make rich developers (who seem to be Ford's closest friends and role models) richer.



There is always that appeal but one has to be careful not to let past precedents - or pure nostalgia - override good decisionmaking. Those old rail corridors exist, but they don't really go where transit ought to be routed going forward, and the cost of building to a co-existing rail-transit corridor might approach the cost of building new dedicated LRT, if the right routes are chosen.

- Paul

Well in this case the routings would be fine, the tracks for each pair go from downtown to downtown. But additional track may be necessary where there isn’t room today. I figure it as an alternative to a GO branch to Cambridge as well. I don’t envision a true interurban, just something that covers the short but prevalent intercity trips between the cities.

And as for land use, theoretically then developers could appeal a project at the OLT to build at a lower density than what the city requires. I can’t envision a situation where a developer would even want that, which is why I find the changing of minimum densities so strange. That’s less returns on the same initial plot of land, no?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

LETTER: $4.5 billion for LRT expansion into Cambridge unjustifiable

'Better bus transit routes will be what reduces our carbon footprint – not an LRT route that has only one route and is unpredictable in winter,' letter writer says

www.cambridgetoday.ca

'It’s never going to get cheaper': LRT expansion into Cambridge will cost a lot more than projected

Connecting Waterloo region’s light rail transit to downtown Cambridge will cost much more than originally planned.

kitchener.ctvnews.ca

The people speak.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Well in this case the routings would be fine, the tracks for each pair go from downtown to downtown. But additional track may be necessary where there isn’t room today. I figure it as an alternative to a GO branch to Cambridge as well. I don’t envision a true interurban, just something that covers the short but prevalent intercity trips between the cities.

And as for land use, theoretically then developers could appeal a project at the OLT to build at a lower density than what the city requires. I can’t envision a situation where a developer would even want that, which is why I find the changing of minimum densities so strange. That’s less returns on the same initial plot of land, no?

The interurban first option DOES have an interesting possibility for making “Hespeler Rd only” viable. Tram trains from Guelph, running down a shared bus / tram ROW on Hespeler to Galt would be a meaningful enhancement to Ion BRT, get the Guelph service running, commit to LRT eventually and do it all without the really big ticket infrastructure pieces on Stage 2.

With that said, the record has the gist right. A connection on the central corridor IS needed, and it’s only going to get more costly. This shouldn’t have been decoupled in any substantial way from the original project, and delaying now serves only to botch Ion overall, hurt regional land use plans and damage the credibility of any staged transit plans provincewide.

 

[Sunnyside]

The interurban first option DOES have an interesting possibility for making “Hespeler Rd only” viable. Tram trains from Guelph, running down a shared bus / tram ROW on Hespeler to Galt would be a meaningful enhancement to Ion BRT, get the Guelph service running, commit to LRT eventually and do it all without the really big ticket infrastructure pieces on Stage 2.

With that said, the record has the gist right. A connection on the central corridor IS needed, and it’s only going to get more costly. This shouldn’t have been decoupled in any substantial way from the original project, and delaying now serves only to botch Ion overall, hurt regional land use plans and damage the credibility of any staged transit plans provincewide.

Agree on everything but the last bit, since the iON is heavily region-led compared to most of the projects being built across the province. It will send a message that cities cannot build transit without the province, however, who has a much higher tolerance for exorbitant costs, and it’s own agenda…

 

[tmlittle]

I'm glad the Guelph link was brought up because it feels as if the plan for it was brought forward, seemed to have a modest cost associated, but was deferred until some vague post-Cambridge LRT future and shelved. My understanding is that Hespeler is largely a commuter suburb that's eastward-facing toward the GTA and giving it a quick and easy link to the Kitchener line feels like a no brainer. Sure it doesn't necessarily connect the region, but we also run the risk of siloing transit as a region by region thing. Cambridge and Guelph are neighbouring cities, after all, and much like Cambridge and Brantford (or Cambridge and anywhere, really) it's disappointing they're not properly connected.

 

[Transportfan]

Hespeler (the town) to downtown Galt.

Doesn't that descriptive scream "amalgamated city"!

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Doesn't that descriptive scream "amalgamated city"!

Sort of, but bear in mind that there's Hespeler (town) and Hespeler Rd, one of these desperately needing a connection and the other the planned LRT route and a major development corridor.