News   Mar 28, 2024
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Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 199 73.2%
  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 10 3.7%
  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 28 10.3%
  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 19 7.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 16 5.9%

  • Total voters
    272
I wouldn't be surprised if the City finds money to do this with just the Feds and leaves the province out of it, but all of the CIty's finance capital is going to maintaining and upgrading the subway network as a condition of Ford's subway deal to take over the funding for the Scarborough Subway.

I suspect the City is spinning it's wheels here to avoid having to pay for most of this, but it's going to have to get creative soon if it wants to get this done. Who knows, maybe they will find a way to get it done.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the City finds money to do this with just the Feds and leaves the province out of it, but all of the CIty's finance capital is going to maintaining and upgrading the subway network as a condition of Ford's subway deal to take over the funding for the Scarborough Subway.

I suspect the City is spinning it's wheels here to avoid having to pay for most of this, but it's going to have to get creative soon if it wants to get this done. Who knows, maybe they will find a way to get it done.
Well, they do keep adding more $$ for the planning etc so it is clearly 'on their radar' and there is more discussion expected at WT in late June/July. Yes, it has taken FAR too long but it is certainly not dead.
 
To me, the big issue has been Union Station Loop itself as this is were a huge chunk of money has to be spent along with all the great surprises that will be found once work has started. Then the city wants to do Bay St at the same time as the tunnel.

Then we have gone from a loop plan for Parliament St to either Cherry St or Polson.

The idea has been to have an east-west line in place before doing the tunnel and loop that is still the case today.

The other big change that has surface is moving the Portal from Freeland to the west side of Yonge St that is cost saving as well filling in haft of Yonge Slip to allow access to the hotel and the docks that will remove the current conflict in front of the hotel for everyone.

At the same time, ML wants the use of the land at Cherry St Loop area for about 7 years for the OL. This pushed the Polson extension up a decade as well finding money to build the south LRT bridge that will be a bitch to place it now.
 

Steve Munro has posted a summary of the latest report. No much new info.
 
They should just admit they aren't going to build it. This went through EA in 2010... then they "reset" in 2015 like "woah, are we really going to do this?"... then the study came back in 2018 and then answer was "duh, yes, how else are you going to serve this area?"... now when the design is almost at 30% design they are saying "come back in a year at 30% design" with a cost. But they aren't going to RFP, so any number they come back with will not be a real number. Obviously it doesn't take a whole year to do such a small amount of design. Waterfront signals a readiness to proceed... it is only the city's section under Bay that is the issue. If they approve this next year, which I doubt they will probably not even go to RFP... they will go to RFI (are there any companies that want to do construction?), then RFQ (of the companies who expressed an interest, and anyone else, is there companies qualified to bid?), then RFP (we spend years getting to 30% and providing an estimate, now don't trust us and do all your own review and come up with new numbers), and then maybe one more round of "reset" (are we really doing this?).

I don't think the city knows how to build anything anymore. If the infrastructure hasn't completely fallen apart then we are getting packed asphalt, painted lines, temporary barriers, and plastic lane edge markers. It will be 2040 before LRT goes to the port lands. I get so frustrated with things that completed EA a decade ago and are even more important today but still aren't happening.
 
They should just admit they aren't going to build it. This went through EA in 2010... then they "reset" in 2015 like "woah, are we really going to do this?"... then the study came back in 2018 and then answer was "duh, yes, how else are you going to serve this area?"... now when the design is almost at 30% design they are saying "come back in a year at 30% design" with a cost. But they aren't going to RFP, so any number they come back with will not be a real number. Obviously it doesn't take a whole year to do such a small amount of design. Waterfront signals a readiness to proceed... it is only the city's section under Bay that is the issue. If they approve this next year, which I doubt they will probably not even go to RFP... they will go to RFI (are there any companies that want to do construction?), then RFQ (of the companies who expressed an interest, and anyone else, is there companies qualified to bid?), then RFP (we spend years getting to 30% and providing an estimate, now don't trust us and do all your own review and come up with new numbers), and then maybe one more round of "reset" (are we really doing this?).

I don't think the city knows how to build anything anymore. If the infrastructure hasn't completely fallen apart then we are getting packed asphalt, painted lines, temporary barriers, and plastic lane edge markers. It will be 2040 before LRT goes to the port lands. I get so frustrated with things that completed EA a decade ago and are even more important today but still aren't happening.

Yes its moving too slowly; but it is moving and it will be built. Sooner than you think.
 
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Yes its moving too slowly; but it is moving and it will be built. Sooner than you think.
I think the problem is waterfront Toronto keeps changing what they are doing and seems to have a very slow timeline and they don't really care about anything outside of their projects that need to be done on their timeline and no one else's.
 
I think the problem is waterfront Toronto keeps changing what they are doing and seems to have a very slow timeline and they don't really care about anything outside of their projects that need to be done on their timeline and no one else's.
Its TTC and the City that keeps changing things due to lack of funds. Then its ML and WFT.

Waterfront Toronto wanted Transit First since 2004 to stop people needing a car to live, work and play on the waterfront.

The EA was done in 2008 and approved by TTC and council, but TTC was short $90 million for the loop at that time.

Phase 1 was to go to a loop at Parliament St around 2014 if I remember correctly.

As time roll on, Waterfront was willing to add some money to cover some of TTC short fall, but it was a drop in the bucket with TTC cost going up that the plan was still DOA.

2019 saw council requested a review of all transit plans and options to see what could be done to speed things up. The review reinforced the approved EA's as well seeing the Bremmer line being remove with TTC still maintaining it in their master plan. A new recommendation was made to move the Bathurst tracks south of Fort York to the QQW to the west side in its own ROW and close Fleet 100% to traffic.

QQW ROW east of Bathurst St would be rebuilt around 2022-24 as well the road to match the existing rebuilt section when it was time for TTC to replace the tracks. TTC did not have the $18 million to replace the ROW when QQW was to be rebuilt and why the different look today.

The other recommendation was an ROW on the Lake Shore from Humber Loop to Legion Rd and to be done first for the Mr Christie project.

2021 saw a change for QQE phase 1 with the shifting of the portal from Freeland to the west side of Yonge saving close to $50 million along with a request from the owner of Westin Hotel to move the conflict on QQW to a new east entrance from an infill of the Yonge slip. At the same time, the Parliament loop would be move to the Cherry St Loop to allow the building of the new QQE road extension cover by Waterfront Toronto. This would require an EA for the LRT extension as well to get under the rail corridor.

The next change was caused by ML who wanted the Cherry St land for the next 7 years to build the OL that saw the line now going to the Polson Loop. Down side to the Polson Loop was the fact that Waterfront Toronto had no money to build the LRT Cherry South Bridge or had it on order. Going to be a bitch to install it when it comes time to do so, but not as bad as Commissioner St bridge.

Based on current thinking, I can see the Commissioner Line move south to the future road and doing a temporary loop north of the new Mouth of The Don.

The main goal is to get an e-w line up and running ASP to allow a full shut down of Union Loop and TTC taking time to rebuild it based on funds it can get. This still requires TTC to have buses on 509 to allow TTC to rebuilt the current portal for a T connection as well the new east one. Buses will still service Union on the surface at a snail pace cause by traffic.

At the end of the day, Waterfront Toronto is short funds to do things as plan as well over spending on things. QQE extension has been on the books and behind schedule to the point various development east of Parliament can't happen until roads are in place. The new Cherry St was supposed to open in Aug this year and could never see it to the point it will be next year considering the North Road bridge is months late being ship from Halifax. It should show up in the coming weeks and be here by Sept.

I have stated since day one after seeing TTC plan for Union Loop that it will never handle the ridership once the waterfront is 100% fully built out.

Transit First in Toronto is a joke these days.
 
Yes, it definitely isn't Waterfront Toronto slowing things down. The Gardiner tear-down happened before the ramps were rebuilt because the city was too slow. The plan was to have transit first in the Waterfront and the transit bridge over the Keating Channel was the first bridge delivered and it was paid for by WT, but then the city was too slow so they figured out how the roads should be laid out with busses running. The city not having the money after all this time is a joke.

Waterfront East LRT, Gardiner Ramps, John St Pedestrian Mall (actual infrastructure adjustments), King Street Reconfiguration (actual infrastructure adjustments), Eglinton Connects (actual), Etobicoke Civic Centre, etc... I'm not optimistic and I will believe it when I see it.... like paint on the Union Station ceiling. If it wasn't for Ford making it easy to deliver a few "SmartTrack" stations that wouldn't be happening either. The city used to be able to do things.
 
In spite of all the funding issues, the plan, re-plan, and plan again iterations the Waterfront Transit initiatives have, and continues to, go through, there appears to be a clarifying focus on the LRT line. From an email received this morning from the project:

From: WaterfrontLRT <WaterfrontLRT@TORONTO.CA>

Greetings,

You are receiving this email because you had previously signed up for updates on the City of Toronto's Waterfront Transit initiatives.

This message is to notify you that the old email address for this project, WaterfrontTransit@toronto.ca, will be decommissioned.

Going forward, if you would like to get in touch with us regarding any questions or comments, please send us an email at the new address: WaterfrontLRT@toronto.ca

We would also like to inform you that there will be an update on the project as part of the upcoming overall transit report on the agenda for the June 8th Executive Committee meeting. The report can be accessed by clicking the following link: http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2022.EX33.2

Cheers,
The Waterfront Transit Team
 
In spite of all the funding issues, the plan, re-plan, and plan again iterations the Waterfront Transit initiatives have, and continues to, go through, there appears to be a clarifying focus on the LRT line. From an email received this morning from the project:

From: WaterfrontLRT <WaterfrontLRT@TORONTO.CA>

Greetings,

You are receiving this email because you had previously signed up for updates on the City of Toronto's Waterfront Transit initiatives.

This message is to notify you that the old email address for this project, WaterfrontTransit@toronto.ca, will be decommissioned.

Going forward, if you would like to get in touch with us regarding any questions or comments, please send us an email at the new address: WaterfrontLRT@toronto.ca

We would also like to inform you that there will be an update on the project as part of the upcoming overall transit report on the agenda for the June 8th Executive Committee meeting. The report can be accessed by clicking the following link: http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2022.EX33.2

Cheers,
The Waterfront Transit Team
If you read the report, it clearly stating there is no funds for the extension at this time and have to wait until Q2 2023 if there is a plan to fund it in phases and how to do it. Where have I heard that before???

What is not stated, who is funding the building of the extension of the road. You can build the road without the LRT and leave that area unfinish until funds are found to get development of the land underway sooner than later. You can also use the New Cherry St to gain some access to the land as there are roads that connect to Cherry St. I expect Waterfront Toronto will do this now as its a Peter paying Paul to things that needs to be built due to lack of fund for WFT. We can throw Billions to make sure 30,000 cars have a highway to use and not waste 5 minutes using an Grand BLVD that will free up space for better use that it is today.

Funding of transit on the waterfront has been an issues since 2004/08 starting with the Cherry St line.

You got the extension from the EX to Dufferin that can't be built due no Dufferin bridge, let alone the impact on it by the OL; the extension from Dufferin to Park Lawn as well rebuilding the Lake Shore Roads
 
As part of looking at the reports on the EELRT and Waterfront LRT today Council passed the following motions:

1655311135233.png


And

1655311156545.png
 
Here we go, time for more "studies" and "staff reports".

All talk and no action, typical Toronto politician behavior.

In fairness, there was no request for studies when you look at the actual motion wording:

1655312157672.png
 

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