News   Jul 22, 2024
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Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 203 72.2%
  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 12 4.3%
  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 30 10.7%
  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 20 7.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 16 5.7%

  • Total voters
    281
Hard to do if you promise "No new taxes or tax increases"

True; but it may be easier for the voters to accept a temporary special-purpose surtax than a general tax rate increase.

First, they get something visible in return, that they can see and even ride.

And secondly, it will have a sunset. The project gets built, the surtax ends.
 
True; but it may be easier for the voters to accept a temporary special-purpose surtax than a general tax rate increase.

First, they get something visible in return, that they can see and even ride.

And secondly, it will have a sunset. The project gets built, the surtax ends.
Look, I am in favour of higher taxes and/or special surtaxes for special things BUT if a politician promises (often) not to increase taxes it really is hard for them to then say "oh, by the way ..." after the election.
 
Look, I am in favour of higher taxes and/or special surtaxes for special things BUT if a politician promises (often) not to increase taxes it really is hard for them to then say "oh, by the way ..." after the election.

I understand that; the success is not guaranteed, but I wouldn't rule out that option. Chow, the likely winner of the coming mayoral elections, didn't promise not to increase taxes.

When the SSE surtax was voted for, Rob Ford himself reluctantly voted "Yes". Then John Tory came to power, he is center-right and not particularly fond of taxes, and had a large degree of control over the whole council. The SSE surtax remained in place.

Chow being center-left, one would think that a chance to set a dedicated transit surtax improves.
 
I think the City is just holding out until a favorable provincial government comes into power and enters a cost-sharing agreement on the build. I would wager we don’t see anything built for another 6 years at minimum.
 
I think the City is just holding out until a favorable provincial government comes into power and enters a cost-sharing agreement on the build. I would wager we don’t see anything built for another 6 years at minimum.
You may be right but this is typical of our municipal government. They state something is a 'priority' ( an LRT line, homelessness, tents in parks, illegal signs etc etc) but then fail to allocate $$ to either build it or fix it or enforce it.
 
You may be right but this is typical of our municipal government. They state something is a 'priority' ( an LRT line, homelessness, tents in parks, illegal signs etc etc) but then fail to allocate $$ to either build it or fix it or enforce it.
Yes - and I’m not excusing that. Toronto’s institutional culture is a case study in wishful thinking.

The latest ploy to fill the budget hole with funds from the Federal government (anything to avoid raising property taxes!) is an example of that.
 
Yes - and I’m not excusing that. Toronto’s institutional culture is a case study in wishful thinking.

The latest ploy to fill the budget hole with funds from the Federal government (anything to avoid raising property taxes!) is an example of that.
They have actually increased the stupidity by filling budget holes with money HOPED FOR from others but not actually promised and certainly not received!
 
As someone who play a part in writing the terms of references and the Master Waterfront Transit plan starting in 2004, its been disheartening to see the non building of most the plan today when things were to be done 10 years ago.

I have seen the removal of 3 lines over the years that were approved by TTC and council in 2006 from the Master Plan.

It was known back in 2004-2006 that TTC had a funding issue starting with the Union Loop along with the whole thing.

I stand by my position going back to 2016 that lets build the east-west line ASP and leave the tunnels and loop to TTC when they have the $600 million plus to do the work. This would see the 509/510 out of service for 6-9 months to built the T connection at Bay and the new portal once the tracks and ROW is built east of it.

Connecting the existing Cherry St Line to the new line is at the whim of ML with the building of the OL which is not a deal breaker.

If we can get the QQE up and running by 2027-30, I can live with it, but not if it later than 2030.

Transit planning has suck badly in Toronto for decades and more so since the days when TTC stop making a profit to build its expansion and started to need the city help to build things. Once TTC needed help to do things, council rank TTC far down the list as it would be costly if they rank them higher to the point the city is paying for that big mistake today. TTC is also a major problem from poor mismanagements' and reinventing the wheel at a cost of 2-4 times the normal cost by not doing it. With the city not willing to increase taxes like everyone else has been doing for years, it been cutting itself to the point things are not being built or the wrong things are being built that service very few residents of the city in the first place.

The stubborn thinking of council that.e the province or the Fed's will help them out of the current mess is falsity thinking and time to realizes they have to bit the bullet by raising taxes along with special taxes on top of it to get things built sooner than later. No different than 100's of cities in NA that have already done it.

Since there will be no new mayor yet when TTC next meeting takes place in June as well council, time to do a write in campaign to get QQE funded starting with taking the plan too 100% design and going out for bids in 2024, leaving the loop as an add on as time goes on. This a case for the mayor with power to kick start Toronto in building better transit, housing and health care, otherwise, things will only get worse.

We need to get the western extension from Exhibition to Park Lawn up and running as well.

Getting things done for King St Mall will be a fight with Queen out of action, but it needs to happen yesterday.
 
I stand by my position going back to 2016 that lets build the east-west line ASP and leave the tunnels and loop to TTC when they have the $600 million plus to do the work. This would see the 509/510 out of service for 6-9 months to built the T connection at Bay and the new portal once the tracks and ROW is built east of it.
I too am really puzzled as to why the loop was (to my understanding) ordered first in this timeline. As an outsider it makes sense to me that we should do the E/W line first, and leave the connection to Union until later, because it’s more challenging and costly.

But now we have neither. I hope someone at the TTC is happy about this state of affairs.
 
I too am really puzzled as to why the loop was (to my understanding) ordered first in this timeline. As an outsider it makes sense to me that we should do the E/W line first, and leave the connection to Union until later, because it’s more challenging and costly.

Will that really work for the riders though? A lot of Waterfront residents want to travel to the core downtown employment area north of Union, or transfer to the subway and travel somewhere on the subway. If the streetcar line goes E-W only, then how do they get to their destinations?

Some of streetcars still go to Union using the existing loop? Shuttle buses? Just walking from the Ferry Doc station to Union? Or going around, to Spadina or Cherry then north and then back towards Yonge?
 
Will that really work for the riders though? A lot of Waterfront residents want to travel to the core downtown employment area north of Union, or transfer to the subway and travel somewhere on the subway. If the streetcar line goes E-W only, then how do they get to their destinations?

Some of streetcars still go to Union using the existing loop? Shuttle buses? Just walking from the Ferry Doc station to Union? Or going around, to Spadina or Cherry then north and then back towards Yonge?
I think the suggestion is to build the E-W connection along with the T-junction that would allow travel to the Union loop and defer the loop improvements. In the interim the loop would continue to function as it does today and would be expanded when money is found. Presumably this would mean a transfer at Harbourfront Centre for Westbound passengers needing the connection to Union or a long walk from Freeland Street.
 
I think all of you have covered the issues well, so I won't chip in on most of it; but I do want to add one thing when looking back at the past.

What the City ought to have done is approved all these buildings to the east of Yonge but attached the 'H' (the holding by-law that says 'approved subject to 'x' being completed), and that 'x' should have been the Waterfront East LRT.
I'll wager a lot of developers would have leaned in very heavily on other levels of government if their proposals were moving as fast as Greenland's.....
 
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