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Waterfront: Portlands Sports Complex (8s?, RDH Architects) DEAD

I'm not arguing FOR above ground parking spots. I'm just pointing out the difficulties that are presented by an underground parking facility. You can find quotes by me all over this board along the lines of us living in the one of the wealthiest places in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and therefore money shouldn't be an issue. However, people do think money is an issue. Because of this, and because of the immense need for a facility like this, I would hate to see some squabbling over how to fund a cavernous underground parking lot derail the entire project. If there is a will, then there is a way, and certainly I'm all for finding an alternative if a condo developer or whoever wants to pitch in.

Also, you can't compare this complex to the ACC and the Skydome. If I need to explain why, then you simply don't have a grasp of what is being proposed and its purpose.
 
Why not build them somewhere else? Like I said, CNE grounds already has a huge underused parking lot. Easy access there too by Gardiner, Lakeshore, Dufferin street...
 
I actually would have no problem with that for the most part. There is some space south of BMO Field that would be perfect (enough room for a 4-pad, and parking, even during the CNE). Oh wait the CNE... What happens during those 2 weeks? Not having access to the rinks would be a pretty significant loss at a time when minor hockey is starting up (mind you, I assume the arenas would be open year-round... but still, it would be 2 weeks lost at a key part of the year, especially for minor hockey programs).
 
Do you know how big of an underground facility you would need for 400+ parking spots? how does that compare to other underground facilities in the city?
It's a lot smaller than some downtown parking lots that are underground.
 
To put it simply, this 4-rink proposal + huge surface parking is out of context with the whole project vision. I cannot imagine cities like London, Paris, even NYC locating such a facity in their central areas. Hume is completely right on this one. If there is need for this, they should be located elsewhere.
 
There's eternal talk of removing sections of the Gardiner, but we won't get to the proposed parking lots any sooner. And I'm not sure that opening up the view is all it's cracked up to be anyway. In fact, driving into the downtown, through all the new buildings , is quite the trip - better than Canada's Wonderland. While we're at it , why couldn't we have the world's longest parking lot under the Gardiner. Now, wouldn't that be world class ! Save the Gardiner !
 
I am of the belief that the reason that they are pushing this for the area, is for the parking itself. If it was just about the rinks, the CNE grounds would be much better suited. By having here instead, it allows the for the creation of parking without dirtying the progressive labels some like to carry around.
 
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

None of which are good.

The hockey-playing community in this city has been screaming for more rink space, and screaming for money to fix existing rinks, which have had little investment over the last couple of decades. Many rink complexes in this city are starting to fall apart. I think you could easily build in both the Portlands and at the CNE and you would find that every ice surface was constantly in use. Something like that might mean that one or two of the worst rinks closer to the CNE and Portlands sites might just be bulldozed instead of fixed up then: could some kind of land-swap be made to a developer to build new condos (or whatever) on old single-pad sites? A system like that could help pay for new rinks.

One way or the other, one hopes a new 4-pad rink in the Portlands would still have urban planning principles applied in its design, and not suburban planning principles. Even though the Portlands feels suburban now because of the shear amount of space down there to redevelop, it won't feel like that forever, and the city will soon regret wasteful land use planning once redevelopment space gets tighter. So whether parking goes underground, or on the surface with the rinks above, or on the roof, or in an adjacent parking garage... let's hope that land is not used wastefully down here, as we do not have an indefinite supply of it.
 
From the Star, by Hume:

Hume: Waterfront panel threatens to quit over Don Lands complex
Resignations could come as early as this week

Published On Sun May 9 2010

By Christopher Hume

Urban Issues, Architecture Plans to build a sports complex on the Lower Don Lands have the Waterfront Design Review Panel so upset that all 12 members are preparing to resign if it goes ahead.

Those resignations could come as early as this week.

The blue-ribbon volunteer panel was created amidst much fanfare in 2005. Its members include some of the most respected architects, landscape architects and engineers in Canada.

Sources tell the Star that a letter of resignation has already been drawn up. It makes clear that if the city proceeds with the $32-million facility, which includes four ice pads and surface parking for 440 cars, it will have no choice but to sever ties with Waterfront Toronto.

Just weeks ago, respected planner, Ken Greenberg, resigned over the same athletic complex.

The major issue is location: the city wants to build the facility on land that has been set aside for a sustainable, transit-oriented, mixed-use neighbourhood. Details of that plan are now being refined by a team selected through an international design competition held in 2007. Though the scheme will not be realized for years, perhaps decades, the sports proposal would essentially render the plan useless.

According to a member of the design review panel, there are other waterfront sites where such a facility could be accommodated, but not on the Lower Don Lands.

Waterfront Toronto, the agency created in 2001 by the three levels of government to oversee waterfront revitalization, has said that the facility is not its “preferred option.”

The main champions of the athletic centre are Toronto Mayor David Miller and a deputy city manager named Richard Butts. They have clearly opted for expediency over excellence.

Butts, a career bureaucrat whose background is in garbage collection, has consistently rejected advice from Waterfront Toronto as well as independent planners.

The mayor, on the other hand, fought hard to be appointed to the board of Waterfront Toronto. But as one panel member put it, “Miller just doesn't get it. He has become an obstacle.”

Three years ago, the city embarrassed the panel by overriding its objections to the Corus office building now nearing completion at the foot of Jarvis St. Despite the panel's criticism that the building lacked the architectural quality appropriate for the first new construction on the waterfront, the project went ahead.

It was designed by Toronto architect Jack Diamond, who served as a campaign manager on Miller's first mayoral run in 2003.

From the start, however, many observers argued that Waterfront Toronto doesn't have the powers needed to fulfill its mandate. Without the ability to borrow money against the future value of its lands, it must forever wait for government funding. Given current economic conditions, that won't be forthcoming anytime soon. The $1.5 billion promised a decade ago has now been largely committed and the agency is all but broke.

As a result, plans that would have transformed the bottom end of the city are now quietly being cut back or dropped altogether.

The design review panel will meet on Wednesday to discuss the athletic complex and other issues. By then, sources say, the letter of mass resignation will have been signed by all members.

For Miller, these developments will call into question his self-styled role as one of the greenest mayors in North America. It was he who lobbied to get the waterfront named one of 17 “large-scale urban projects” designated by the Clinton Foundation as “climate positive communities.”

But in a few short years we've gone from that to planning parking lots on waterfront land the city once touted as potentially the most desirable real estate in Toronto.

http://www.thestar.com/yourcitymyci...anel-threatens-to-quit-over-don-lands-complex
_____________

Good for them.

AoD
 
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I think one of the reasons for buiulding a rink here is Toronto's rinks are located mostly north of the 401. There are very few suitable rink complexes that actually serve residents of Toronto, East York, etc. This rink would be much closer to home for a lot of people in the City than where they currently travel to. It would cut my trips to hockey in half, for example.

To be honest, all of the problems I've heard about this site seem solvable. Too much parking demand? Implement programs to reduce demand (i.e. charge for parking to encourage car-pooling). Still too much surface parking ? Allow on-street parking on area streets. Arena parking is weekend and evening mostly. The parking facility could be shared with other area uses that don't use parking during the evening or weekend, such as employment uses. And surface parking doesn't have to be a complete eyesore, it can be built in a way that is screened and doesn't ruin the neighbourhood.

Not sure why people are resigning over this. If you're hired to make something work then find a way to get it done, don't walk away.
 
valkoholic:

At the end of the day, the WT Design Panel doesn't have enough powers to order all these suggestion you've listed to be implemented - they aren't hired to "make things work" so to say. In it's own way, resigning is one way to uphold the integrity of their job.

AoD
 

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