VIA Rail

[micheal_can]

I think my location is a great example.... If someone said they are going to the train station in Sudbury, I would ask which one or what they were catching. There are 3 within the city proper, of which 2 serve the same route, and the 3rd is inaccessible from the other 2.

In a place like Toronto, They would not say train station as there are countless stations that are train stations

I have friends and family who live in the Ottawa area,and if they say the train station, they mean the main Via station in the city. Due to their disdain of the LRT, if I meant one of those stations, they would correct me with LRT station. However, they may not know which LRT station is the main Via station.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Last time I checked, Ottawa Rail Station was located at the intersection of two of the cuty‘s busiest roadways, the Highway 417 and the Vanier Parkway. If you treat intermodality with the intercity rail station as an afterthought, then naturally ridership will remain well below its potential.

Located right next to a major exit of Highway 417 and only a 5-10 minute LRT ride from downtown, this would have been a prime location for an intercity bus station. Instead, the LRT station was built in a way which made the continuation of such intercity bus services untanable.

I guess that must be why it‘s called „Tremblay“ and situated on the transit map next to two tiny third-order dots labelled „VIA Rail“ and „Park RCGT Parc“.

You may be right that from an Ottawa resident‘s perspective, calling the LRT station serving the rail station after the road it is located rather than the station itself and not trying to integrate it into any other transit networks might make sense, but from the perspective of international tourists, this is an extremely odd decision which you‘ll struggle to find anywhere else on this planet in cities of similar size or importance…

The Central Bus Terminal was closed and demolished well after OLRT was planned and built.

As for intercity bus, this is about the worst possible location for one, even if we consider the "intermodality." With optimal design, how many people are transferring between the bus and train network, even after HxR implementation? Would you see Dorval as the best place for "intermodality" for Montréal? Perhaps we could have all intercity buses run to Oshawa, or Downsview, or Mimico. Think of the intermodality we could have!

Ottawa made the decision to close their downtown terminal in the 1960s. Unless someone reopens it for the cost of billions, intermodal intercity transfers will never be the ideal in Ottawa.

Maybe the term „train station“ is ambiguous, but I would argue that „rail station“ is the generally accepted term to cover intercity and suburban rail stations without including stations which only serve urban rail services such as Metro, LRT or Streetcar.

May I ask you how many „rail stations“ Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Amsterdam or Frankfurt have according to your personal definition? If someone asks you in downtown Toronto where the „rail station“ is, do you point them towards the nearest streetcar stop or Union Station?

Correct, and Ottawa seems to be a very notable and extraordinary exception.

Correct, if a station has a particular name, the transit station will adopt it and where it doesn’t (like in Ottawa) it wouldn‘t and just generically refer to it as something like „rail station“.

Correct, Ottawa‘s VIA Rail station does not have an alternative name and it doesn’t need one, because it clearly is the highest-order station serving the city.

Incorrect, given that there is only one rail station named after the city, there is no need to designate a name to that station. My favorite example is Leeds (where I did my undergrad), which has 15 rail stations within the city proper, but only one station called „Leeds“, which is served by bus stops called „Station“ without causing any confusion woth the other 14 rail stations in the city or the bus station (which is called, well, „Bus Station“):

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View attachment 590882View attachment 590885

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Fully agreed.

I‘m not saying that the City of Ottawa (including, but not limited to: OC Transpo) do nothing to serve the VIA station, but I do maintain that they treat intermodality with intercity passengers at the city‘s second-busiest intercity passenger facility (assuming that only YOW airport is busier, since there is no longer a centralized intercity bus station) as an afterthought.

As @lrt's friend has alluded to, LRT station naming is motivated by many things, but not logic, international conventions or any regards for tourists unfamiliar with the city. For a capital city of a major country, this is a rather pathetic attitude…

You might be surprised at how many people use, or even know of, VIA in the general public ...

I have never heard of a station named "rail station" on a rail transit line. "Ottawa Station," I could see the point, but that's not your argument.

That the station was renamed, after 30+ years of operation as "Train," suggesting that perhaps the City of Ottawa doesn't have a vendetta against VIA, doesn't matter.

 

[micheal_can]

People in Canada do not use the term 'Rail' station. They use the term 'Train' station. They might use 'Via Rail' station. They also use Skytrain station, LRT Station, Go Station,, Subway Station, Metro station, etc, but not Rail station. What Ottawa could have done was simply label their LRT station as Via Rail.

 

[Urban Sky]

The Central Bus Terminal was closed and demolished well after OLRT was planned and

The Central Bus Terminal was a prime example that proximity to downtown is not the most important (let alone: only) criterion to determine the ideal location for an intercity bus terminal, as the integration to the local and urban bus network was really bad.

As for intercity bus, this is about the worst possible location for one, even if we consider the "intermodality." With optimal design, how many people are transferring between the bus and train network, even after HxR implementation?

That obviously depends on the quality of bus services serving the intercity bus station, but given that one of the most important transport policy challenges in this country will be to align and integrate its intercity bus and rail networks. This does not necessitate a joint facility, as Hurdman or Saint-Laurent would still tick the appropriate boxes (convenience of downtown and highway access and ease of transfers to other important modes).

Would you see Dorval as the best place for "intermodality" for Montréal? Perhaps we could have all intercity buses run to Oshawa, or Downsview, or Mimico. Think of the intermodality we could have!

Tremblay LRT station offers downtown access every 5-10 minutes in 5-10 minutes travel time, whereas of all the examples you‘ve listed, not a single one offers anything close to such a convenient downtown connection, which makes me wonder why you would volunteer such obviously nonsensical comparisons.

Ottawa made the decision to close their downtown terminal in the 1960s. Unless someone reopens it for the cost of billions, intermodal intercity transfers will never be the ideal in Ottawa.

Decades of research and best industry practice dictate that any suitable intercity bus terminal in Ottawa must be located at a Confederation line adjacent to the 417 Highway and in close proximity to downtown. What stations other than Hurdman, Tremblay (VIA Rail Station) or Saint-Laurent would tick all these boxes?

You might be surprised at how many people use, or even know of, VIA in the general public ...

Which is why we usually let experts, not the general public or politicians plan transportation networks!

I have never heard of a station named "rail station" on a rail transit line. "Ottawa Station," I could see the point, but that's not your argument.

I‘m agnostic about how the LRT station should be renamed as long as it finally acknowledges the adjacent location of VIA Rail’s Ottawa station. „Tremblay“ is already probably the worst name anyone could have possibly come up with.

Here are three examples of intercity rail stations in Europe which are used by suburban, regional and intercity rail services without any suffixes to the city name and still have appropriately named LRT stations attached:

Example 1:
Network Rail station name: Newcastle
LRT station name: Newcastle Central Station


Example 2:
Network Rail station name: Sheffield
LRT station name: Sheffield Station (Sheffield Hallam Univeristy)


Example 3:
DB InfraGo name: Siegburg/Bonn
LRT station name: Siegburg/Bahn Bahnhof [„rail station“]

That the station was renamed, after 30+ years of operation as "Train," suggesting that perhaps the City of Ottawa doesn't have a vendetta against VIA, doesn't matter.

It suggests the same ignorance of international conventions and confusion of wayfinding with branding which Metrolinx showed when they thought that passengers would intuitively deduce that the „UP“ logo means „trains to downtown“. The difference to OC Transpo is that they eventually corrected their mistake and started to prioritize the needs of visitors unfamiliar with the city and its transportation networks…

 

[DirectionNorth]

The Central Bus Terminal was a prime example that proximity to downtown is not the most important (let alone: only) criterion to determine the ideal location for an intercity bus terminal, as the integration to the local and urban bus network was really bad.

That obviously depends on the quality of bus services serving the intercity bus station, but given that one of the most important transport policy challenges in this country will be to align and integrate its intercity bus and rail networks. This does not necessitate a joint facility, as Hurdman or Saint-Laurent would still tick the appropriate boxes (convenience of downtown and highway access and ease of transfers to other important modes).

Tremblay LRT station offers downtown access every 5-10 minutes in 5-10 minutes travel time, whereas of all the examples you‘ve listed, not a single one offers anything close to such a convenient downtown connection, which makes me wonder why you would volunteer such obvious silly comparisons.

Decades of research and best industry practice dictate that any suitable intercity bus terminal in Ottawa must be located at a Confederation line adjacent to the 417 Highway and in close proximity to downtown. What stations other than Hurdman, Tremblay (VIA Rail Station) or Saint-Laurent would tick all these boxes?

It's more likely that Ottawa doesn't get any intercity terminal at all, and services continue to disperse. I suspect we'll see west end services terminate at Bayshore or Pinecrest in a few years.

A consequence of the total lack of leadership from provincial governments on intercity bus services, but that's the status quo we have.

Which is why we usually let experts, not the general public or politicians plan transportation networks!

Good luck with that, and do come back with a report on how that goes.

I‘m agnostic about how the LRT station should be renamed as long as it finally acknowledges the adjacent location of VIA Rail’s Ottawa station. „Tremblay“ is already probably the worst name anyone could have possibly come up with.

Here are three examples of intercity rail stations in Europe which are used by suburban, regional and intercity rail services without any suffixes to the city name and still have appropriately named LRT stations attached:

Example 1:
Network Rail station name: Newcastle
LRT station name: Newcastle Central Station
View attachment 590948

Example 2:
Network Rail station name: Sheffield
LRT station name: Sheffield Station (Sheffield Hallam Univeristy)
View attachment 590949

Example 3:
DB InfraGo name: Siegburg/Bonn
LRT station name: Siegburg/Bahn Bahnhof [„rail station“]
View attachment 590950

You seemed more concerned with how "Rail Station" or "Train Station" was an internationally used name.

 

[micheal_can]

What is stopping the owners of the Ottawa Train Station from making it also the intercity bus terminal?

 

[nfitz]

Offhand, I don't think I've ever heard the term "rail station" used in a North American context. At the same time though, outside of Ottawa, I can't think of a major city's train station that doesn't have a name.

I'm still disappointed that the LRT stop in Ottawa wasn't named Train Station station.

 

[Bordercollie]

Taxi services probably like that. Same as how there is no direct public transit service other than a hotel shuttle to Toronto City Centre Airport.

The streetcar stops infront of the airport, what else do you want?

 

[lenaitch]

I'm still disappointed that the LRT stop in Ottawa wasn't named Train Station station.

Followers of Yellowstone run away screaming.

 

[bearcat]

Offhand, I don't think I've ever heard the term "rail station" used in a North American context. At the same time though, outside of Ottawa, I can't think of a major city's train station that doesn't have a name.

I'm still disappointed that the LRT stop in Ottawa wasn't named Train Station station.

Not quite the same, but this gives me Battersea Power Station station vibes (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battersea_Power_Station_tube_station).

 

[Mihairokov]

It's more likely that Ottawa doesn't get any intercity terminal at all, and services continue to disperse. I suspect we'll see west end services terminate at Bayshore or Pinecrest in a few years.

I've taken the bus a few times from St-Laurent Station and I don't totally hate it. I wish it was more of an actual station instead of a bus stop but things could be worse - could always be the street behind Hudson's Bay.

 

[Urban Sky]

It's more likely that Ottawa doesn't get any intercity terminal at all, and services continue to disperse. I suspect we'll see west end services terminate at Bayshore or Pinecrest in a few years.

A consequence of the total lack of leadership from provincial governments on intercity bus services, but that's the status quo we have.

You are correctly naming the culprit for the unfortunate naming of the LRT station serving VIA Rail's Ottawa station (and much more serious misjudgments), but it's certainly not VIA's fault for not having renamed the station to fit within Ottawa's rigid LRT station naming conventions. Cities all over the world have coped with name-less train stations when naming their LRT stations. Ottawa is the notable exception by nothing else than choice.

Good luck with that, and do come back with a report on how that goes.

You only have to look at Montreal to see what happens if you let non-experts and politicians design transportation infrastructure and networks, with a new combined highway-and-rail bridge built for many billions (but with specifications so flimsy which preclude most heavy rail applications) and a tunnel which has been converted from open heavy rail standard to a closed Light Metro system (just at the very moment where a High Speed Rail project was planned which would suffer near-fatal blows to its business case if it couldn't use that tunnel). Similarly, Ottawa insted on choosing the one LRT consortium which failed to achieve "the minimum technical score to qualify for the project" at its own peril...

You seemed more concerned with how "Rail Station" or "Train Station" was an internationally used name.

Let's just stick to "train station" and urban rail networks Canada (from East-to-West):

The STM calls its subway service "Métro" (i.e., not a "train" service) and its stops "Stations" (i.e., not a "train station"):

Spoiler

The REM calls its service "light rail transit" and its stops "REM stations":

Spoiler

OC Transpo calls its LRT system „O-Train“ and its stops „O-Train stations“:

Spoiler

The TTC calls its subway services "Subway Lines" and its stops "Stations" or "Stops" and its streetcar services "Streetcar Lines" and their stops "stops":

Spoiler

Edmonton calls its LRT service "LRT" and its stops "LRT stations":

Spoiler

Calgary calls its LRT service "CTrain" and its stops "CTrain stations":

Spoiler

Finally, Translink calls Vancouver's Light Metro network "SkyTrain" and its stops "SkyTrain Stations":

Spoiler

As we can see with these seven urban rail networks across Canada, no Canadian city refers to any of its urban rail networks as a "train" service and their stops as "train stations".

Conversely, there actually is one rail service in this country, which does call its services a "train" service and their stops "train stations":

Spoiler

Therefore, the claim that naming any of Ottawa's LRT stations "Train Station" would have been confusing for any Canadian resident appears to me as a fabricated claim to somehow excuse the bizarre refusal of the City of Ottawa and its transit operator OC Transpo to name its LRT station at Tremblay Road after the only train station which serves the actual city (as opposed to Fallowfield station which serves its Barrhaven suburb). And just to be sure, there are many valid alternatives to "Train Station", such as calling it "VIA Rail Station", "VIA Rail" or even "Tremblay (VIA Rail Station)"...

 

[Urban Sky]

Offhand, I don't think I've ever heard the term "rail station" used in a North American context.

My understanding is that "train station" is a North American term, whereas "rail station" is used in the rest of the anglosphere (and beyond):

Spoiler

View attachment 591161

At the same time though, outside of Ottawa, I can't think of a major city's train station that doesn't have a name.

Not sure what exactly your definition of "major city" is, but if we have a look at the main train stations in those CMA cities which have more than 300,000 inhabitants, the main rail station of only seven out of these 15 cities have a name attached:

City	Main train station	Specific Station Name
Toronto	Toronto Union Station	Union Station
Montreal	Montreal Gare Centrale	Gare Centrale
Vancouver	Vancouver Pacific Central	Pacific Central
Ottawa-Gatineau	Ottawa train station	none
Calgary	no passenger rail service	none
Edmonton	Edmonton train station	none
Quebec City	Quebec Gare du Palais	Gare du Palais
Winnipeg	Winnipeg train station (according to VIA) Winnipeg Union Station	Union Station
Hamilton	Hamilton GO Centre	GO Centre
Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo	Kitchener train station	none
London	London train station	none
Halifax	Halifax train station	none
St. Catharine's-Niagara	St. Catharine's train station	none
Windsor	Windsor train station	none
Oshawa	Oshawa train station (according to VIA) Durham College Oshawa (according to GO Transit)	Station name sponsorship by nearby university (not acknowledged by VIA Rail)

I'm still disappointed that the LRT stop in Ottawa wasn't named Train Station station.

That would still be easier to navigate for visitors unfamiliar with the city than "Tremblay"...

 

[6ixGod]

Could be worse Ottawa….you could be Calgary with no train station at all.

I throw “Ottawa Capital Station” into the pot. Sounds unique and makes kind of sense.

 

[nfitz]

The TTC calls its ... streetcar services "Streetcar Lines" and their stops "stops"

It might be a bit more complicated than that, as the underground streetcar platforms are called stations - even for intermediate stations that have no subway or rail service. Personally, I call the in-station terminii "stations" as well - I'm not sure what is widespread.

And what do you call Humber Loop?

My understanding is that "train station" is a North American term ... , whereas "rail station" is used in the rest of the anglosphere (and beyond)

In the UK one traditionally called them British Rail stations; and (in London at least), I hear Network Rail stations since British Rail was broken up. I wonder what the usage was before the post-war nationalisation.

Not sure what exactly your definition of "major city" is ....

Normally I go with a million or so. But I think we can ignore cities that don't even have daily rail service!