VIA Rail

[crs1026]

What benefit would there be for GO to run to Buffalo? The Maple Leaf is a daily service.

Thousands of automobiles cross the border daily at Niagara/Fort Erie, many headed for places that could be served by train (Not just Buffalo itself.... a regional service that extends to Rochester is a good example)

Not only could GO/VIA derive a sustainable service out of this auto traffic, every passenger taken off the QEW is a car that won't be filling up an already congested highway.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Thousands of automobiles cross the border daily at Niagara/Fort Erie, many headed for places that could be served by train (Not just Buffalo itself.... a regional service that extends to Rochester is a good example)

Not only could GO/VIA derive a sustainable service out of this auto traffic, every passenger taken off the QEW is a car that won't be filling up an already congested highway.

- Paul

I understand why Via/Amtrak might, but I still don't see it as a GO thing.

 

[lenaitch]

Two key points from the few previous posts jumped out at me: GO/Metrolinx is not federally-regulated so can't run out of the province, and with respect to US border control, we can only do what the US allow or agrees to. I doubt they will be moved by stamping our feet that we can't get to their casino or outlet malls, or the lost tourism revenue in Toronto. Maybe a treaty could be signed but that's beyond government transportation departments and agencies in either country. Or maybe GO/Metrolinx can apply to become federally regulated, but that might hve knock-on impacts.

Regarding what takes place in Europe, they are obviously operating under individual nation-to-nation treaties or some umbrella EU agreement.

Even if transiting through US territory wasn’t already a certain showstopper, I wouldn’t exactly call a 15 minute saving over a 15 hour travel time (between Montreal and Moncton) „considerably faster“:

And that's back when border checks were comparatively quick-and-easy.

 

[micheal_can]

Two key points from the few previous posts jumped out at me: GO/Metrolinx is not federally-regulated so can't run out of the province, and with respect to US border control, we can only do what the US allow or agrees to. I doubt they will be moved by stamping our feet that we can't get to their casino or outlet malls, or the lost tourism revenue in Toronto. Maybe a treaty could be signed but that's beyond government transportation departments and agencies in either country. Or maybe GO/Metrolinx can apply to become federally regulated, but that might hve knock-on impacts.

Regarding what takes place in Europe, they are obviously operating under individual nation-to-nation treaties or some umbrella EU agreement.


And that's back when border checks were comparatively quick-and-easy.

That is not quite true. With the Ontario Northland now under the MTO, and with them also working with Metrolinx, they could use the federal license for their operations along the Nipissing Central Railway as a way to have the legal ability to do it. It could still be run with GO units. It would just change what the employees need to operate this train.

 

[lenaitch]

That is not quite true. With the Ontario Northland now under the MTO, and with them also working with Metrolinx, they could use the federal license for their operations along the Nipissing Central Railway as a way to have the legal ability to do it. It could still be run with GO units. It would just change what the employees need to operate this train.

The might fall under that same government ministry but they are operated as separate entities. The Owen Sound Transportation Company is also under the MTO but it doesn't mean they can start making ferry runs to Sandusky.

I'm not up on federal regulatory processes, but the NCR is chartered to operate between Swastika ON and Rouyn-Noranda QC. The way I read the Canada Transportation Act, I'm not sure its Certificate of Fitness includes operating a passenger service, but I'm not certain on that (to them it doesn't matter since it is a freight-only line). Besides, even Canadian federally regulated roads have to jump through a lot of US hoops if they want to operate internationally.

Just because an internal shortline of the ONR holds a federal operating certificate doesn't mean they can do anything they like with it.

 

[TerryJohnson]

A customs facility at Windsor isn't my favourite idea. There's been talk of moving the Windsor station over to the tunnel for decades, so it just risks a sunk cost.
Whereas, the rebuild of the Detroit station could easily include the necessary facilities. Then we could run 71/76 and 73/78 over there, using the Venture equipment, because the market for Toronto-Detroit is bigger than Chicago-Windsor.
Maybe US CBP doesn't want to allow us stinky Canadians a few feet beyond the border even in a sealed train?

 

[Urban Sky]

A customs facility at Windsor isn't my favourite idea. There's been talk of moving the Windsor station over to the tunnel for decades, so it just risks a sunk cost.
Whereas, the rebuild of the Detroit station could easily include the necessary facilities. Then we could run 71/76 and 73/78 over there, using the Venture equipment, because the market for Toronto-Detroit is bigger than Chicago-Windsor.
Maybe US CBP doesn't want to allow us stinky Canadians a few feet beyond the border even in a sealed train?

The corridor from the tunnel is certainly shorter and easier to seal than when the Adirondack travels from the Lacolle border point to the Amtrak Station at Rouses Point…

 

[drum118]

Two key points from the few previous posts jumped out at me: GO/Metrolinx is not federally-regulated so can't run out of the province, and with respect to US border control, we can only do what the US allow or agrees to. I doubt they will be moved by stamping our feet that we can't get to their casino or outlet malls, or the lost tourism revenue in Toronto. Maybe a treaty could be signed but that's beyond government transportation departments and agencies in either country. Or maybe GO/Metrolinx can apply to become federally regulated, but that might hve knock-on impacts.

Regarding what takes place in Europe, they are obviously operating under individual nation-to-nation treaties or some umbrella EU agreement.


And that's back when border checks were comparatively quick-and-easy.

RR in Europe under the EU flag are running under EU requirements to a point. A lot has to be done in various countries first before meeting EU standards. There are more cross boarder service meeting EU requirements, but still away to go to meet full requirements.

One has to look a France that was control by SCNF that it has to open its systems to allow other systems to run on SCNF system and compete with them. Same goes for Italy

Windsor Station has always been in a bad location and if service to the US is to resume like it should, a new station needs to be build on CPKC line. It would be a lot closer to Windsor downtown which is not great these days.

Plans are underway to rebuilt Detroit station and have service resume to it as part of Ford taking over the property.. Its a nice looking station like Buffalo. The station will off service to other places beside Chicago.

As for ONR, I have always seen GO going far north as North Bay from day one, but the issue is CN/CPKC allowing it. Need different equipment for that service as it wouldn't be fun doing the trip on Bilevel cars. Then I have always seen GO going to Windsor, Niagara Fall/Buffalo, North Bay and Kingston. Going to Buffalo would require US crews or Canadian Crews allow to run in the US as well custom clearance.

For VIA, it is were can it provide service that is currently not offer to riders to grow the system. Would a line to Cleveland work??

 

[Urban Sky]

Only one hour transfer time at Windsor (which includes clearing customs). That sounds more than ambitious:

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[micheal_can]

The might fall under that same government ministry but they are operated as separate entities. The Owen Sound Transportation Company is also under the MTO but it doesn't mean they can start making ferry runs to Sandusky.

I'm not up on federal regulatory processes, but the NCR is chartered to operate between Swastika ON and Rouyn-Noranda QC. The way I read the Canada Transportation Act, I'm not sure its Certificate of Fitness includes operating a passenger service, but I'm not certain on that (to them it doesn't matter since it is a freight-only line). Besides, even Canadian federally regulated roads have to jump through a lot of US hoops if they want to operate internationally.

Just because an internal shortline of the ONR holds a federal operating certificate doesn't mean they can do anything they like with it.

I do not know the details. I am certain that if it was needed, the province would figure it out. I was just pointing one possibility.

 

[lenaitch]

I do not know the details. I am certain that if it was needed, the province would figure it out. I was just pointing one possibility.

And that's part of why people having debating you on here. You were not "just pointing one possibility", you were making a definitive statement.

That is not quite true. With the Ontario Northland now under the MTO, and with them also working with Metrolinx, they could use the federal license for their operations along the Nipissing Central Railway as a way to have the legal ability to do it. It could still be run with GO units. It would just change what the employees need to operate this train.

 

[micheal_can]

And that's part of why people having debating you on here. You were not "just pointing one possibility", you were making a definitive statement.

Sorry that you took it as a definitive statement.

 

[Urban Sky]

And that's part of why people having debating you on here. You were not "just pointing one possibility", you were making a definitive statement.

His persistent habit of writing the biggest nonsense as definitive statements is what got him eventually banned on Skyscraper Page (after ignoring countless warnings) under the applause of exasperated commentors. Just an example, but it really takes an extraordinary level of cluelessness to claim that hospitals and schools operate “under one big union contract throughout the country”. And just like with you, he always tried to blame those who called him out rather than just owning up to his mistakes.

There are unfortunately good reasons why I would strongly advise against engaging him, especially in this thread…

 

[robmausser]

His persistent habit of writing the biggest nonsense as definitive statements is what got him eventually banned on Skyscraper Page (after ignoring countless warnings) under the applause of exasperated commentors. Just an example, but it really takes an extraordinary level of cluelessness to claim that hospitals and schools operate “under one big union contract throughout the country”. And just like with you, he always tried to blame those who called him out rather than just owning up to his mistakes.

There are unfortunately good reasons why I would strongly advise against engaging him, especially in this thread…

I am someone who has alternative viewpoints a lot of times compared to more urbanist centric posters here, and I've never once read something he's written and completely disagreed with it haha.

 

[EnviroTO]

The border clearance facility being in Detroit makes more sense from a destination / terminus perspective. The Windsor terminus makes more sense from a "don't move Windsor station", and US pre-clearance perspective.

Detroit's rebuilt station would be an excellent place for customs hall and a great connection point for other services in the US. Detroit is more of a destination than Windsor. How much of the station will be allowed to be dedicated to train operations is a question.

Windsor's current station is located on a spur. Trains need to turn around to get out which means there is some delay and opportunity to make that delay productive by having passengers disembark. Spurs make a better terminus than a through line. Having the terminus at the current Windsor station means not needing to move the station which may be worthwhile if most trains went through the tunnel but is an unnecessary expense for one train per day. Going through the tunnel or a new station would be constrained by freight operations which aren't an issue where the station is currently located.

In summary, until there is a much greater volume of trains to Detroit station the cost of any large lease in Detroit and new station in Windsor doesn't make sense. The terminus at Windsor is far cheaper and easier to deliver.