VIA Rail

[reaperexpress]

While that seems logical.....

I would expect Toronto would be the destination for most Americans, and Toronto is considerably larger than Detroit.

If the routing of any train here followed the North Mainline it might also connect Americans to Stratford (many, many Americans do drive up.

****

I imagine Detroit would be a larger destination than Chicago, simply due to to total travel time from the GTA to Chicago and the ability to take a plane for that trip.

If you are travelling beyond Windsor or Detroit it makes no difference where the facility is located. It will be somewhere along the route.

The difference only affects trips heading specifically to/from Detroit or Windsor. If the facility is in Windsor, someone heading from Canada to Detroit needs to go through customs, wait for everyone else to also go through customs, and ride a train 1 stop to Detroit.
If the facility is in Detroit they can leave the station as soon as they clear customs, saving them a huge amount of time.
If they are heading anywhere beyond Detroit, they will need to wait for everyone to clear customs and board a second train regardless of whether the facility is in Windsor or Detroit.

 

[Northern Light]

I wouldn’t hold my breath, given how long such a pre-clearance facility has been discussed for Gare Centrale in Montreal, but it‘s certainly an interesting proposal, since it relies on the exosting stations in Windsor and Detroit:

I'm inclined to agree.

I would add, I think its quite peculiar that the focus on pre-clearance isn't Toronto and N-F and/or Buffalo, NY.

The amount of cross-border passenger traffic between that City pair and between Rochester and Toronto is more substantial than anything else east of Vancouver, I would think. (daily commuters in Windsor-Detroit might throw that off, but that's not a VIA-Amtrak market. (daily, short, commute)

What keeps rail traffic low in the Buffalo/Toronto connection is both the inordinate customs stopover, but also the reliance on the NYC- Toronto train (Maple Leaf) which because of distance has timing reliability issues and is also infrequent.

I think a properly run, express or limited-stop shuttle could probably do a 6x daily run and be at 80% capacity

 

[Urban Sky]

I'm inclined to agree.

I would add, I think its quite peculiar that the focus on pre-clearance isn't Toronto and N-F and/or Buffalo, NY.

The amount of cross-border passenger traffic between that City pair and between Rochester and Toronto is more substantial than anything else east of Vancouver, I would think. (daily commuters in Windsor-Detroit might throw that off, but that's not a VIA-Amtrak market. (daily, short, commute)

What keeps rail traffic low in the Buffalo/Toronto connection is both the inordinate customs stopover, but also the reliance on the NYC- Toronto train (Maple Leaf) which because of distance has timing reliability issues and is also infrequent.

I think a properly run, express or limited-stop shuttle could probably do a 6x daily run and be at 80% capacity

Agreed, but that only works if you follow the CP line (via Hamilton and Welland) to pass the border at Fort Erie and then turn South (via a currently nonexistant curve) towards Buffalo Exchange Station, where you would need a joint border facility…

 

[Northern Light]

Agreed, but that only works if you follow the CP line (via Hamilton and Welland) to pass the border at Fort Erie and then turn South (via a currently nonexistant curve) towards Buffalo Exchange Station, where you would need a joint border facility…

There is connecting trackage on the U.S. side from Niagara Falls to Buffalo, out of curiosity, why would you not go that route?

 

[Allandale25]

Via Rail CEO discusses Maritime ridership

CTV’s Todd Battis talks with Via Rail CEO Mario Peloquin about passenger numbers and rail travel.

atlantic.ctvnews.ca

 

[reaperexpress]

I wonder what the travel time from Montréal to Moncton via Lac Mégantic and Maine would be these days. There was a period when Via ran 6/week from Montréal to Halifax, alternating between the route via Bathurst and via Lac Mégantic. At that time, the Lac Mégantic route was considerably faster, though after years of shortline ownership that may not be the case anymore.

To run via Maine, trains would of course need to be customs sealed.

 

[Urban Sky]

There is connecting trackage on the U.S. side from Niagara Falls to Buffalo, out of curiosity, why would you not go that route?

Because it‘s unthinkable that the US Border Police would accept anyone to operate Niagara Falls/ON to Buffalo as a sealed train. Even Fort Erie to Buffalo might be a stretch…

I wonder what the travel time from Montréal to Moncton via Lac Mégantic and Maine would be these days. There was a period when Via ran 6/week from Montréal to Halifax, alternating between the route via Bathurst and via Lac Mégantic. At that time, the Lac Mégantic route was considerably faster, though after years of shortline ownership that may not be the case anymore.

To run via Maine, trains would of course need to be customs sealed.

Even if transiting through US territory wasn’t already a certain showstopper, I wouldn’t exactly call a 15 minute saving over a 15 hour travel time (between Montreal and Moncton) „considerably faster“:

Source: official 1990-01-15 VIA schedule

 

[reaperexpress]

There is connecting trackage on the U.S. side from Niagara Falls to Buffalo, out of curiosity, why would you not go that route?

That is likely the route that the service would follow but building a (better) customs facility in Niagara Falls would make little difference to the travel time between Buffalo and Toronto. The train would still need to stop, kick everyone off and wait for every person to clear customs before continuing, just as they do today. In order to obtain the big time savings, the customs facility needs to be located in the origin or destination station.

To be clear, there are some benefits of a proper facility in Niagara Falls Ontario, primarily due to the potential for increased frequency. Scheduled customs times toward Canada could be shortened if for example there were hourly GO service from Niagara Falls to Toronto, so if a couple passengers get held up at customs the remainder can still continue on their way without delay.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'm inclined to agree.

I would add, I think its quite peculiar that the focus on pre-clearance isn't Toronto and N-F and/or Buffalo, NY.

The amount of cross-border passenger traffic between that City pair and between Rochester and Toronto is more substantial than anything else east of Vancouver, I would think. (daily commuters in Windsor-Detroit might throw that off, but that's not a VIA-Amtrak market. (daily, short, commute)

What keeps rail traffic low in the Buffalo/Toronto connection is both the inordinate customs stopover, but also the reliance on the NYC- Toronto train (Maple Leaf) which because of distance has timing reliability issues and is also infrequent.

I think a properly run, express or limited-stop shuttle could probably do a 6x daily run and be at 80% capacity

Honestly I could see GO running an extension to Buffalo at some point to serve the Buffalo market - even just 1-2 trains a day.

The only way pre-clearance could work in Toronto is if they had "sealed" train cars on the train which contained trans-border passengers, as passengers can use the Maple Leaf for domestic trips within Canada. Even then, you would have issues with people boarding at Oakville, St. Catharines, etc. without preclearance. It would significantly shrink the wait at the border I guess at least as only those passengers would need clearance in Niagara Falls.

Another alternative, especially similar to the setup proposed in Windsor, is to have a handful of GO Trains run across the Niagara River to Niagara Falls NY to drop passengers off in advance of a connecting Amtrak service. NY State is looking at increasing services on their end, and with GO looking at more frequent Niagara services as well, you could run a decent cross-border connection a few times a day with the GO Trian timed to drop passengers off 30-45 minutes in advance of an Amtrak departure and vice versa, to give time for customs clearance. Hell, you could even just build a pedestrian crossing between the two stations.. they are all of 600 metres apart.

Of course this all comes back to how awful the US-Canadian border experience is in general for a border between two western nations.. a move to be much closer to the European model of border crossings would save a whole lot of hassle on many, many levels.. but that's a good ol' fantasy on my end as someone who crosses the border 4-6 times a year and is well sick of the existing setup.

 

[Northern Light]

I appreciate what posters are saying above; I must confess, I don't see how we can let USCBP intransigence be the deciding factor in how service gets designed. They need to be overcome.

I don't see why we can't:

a) Seal select cars, and pre-clear at limited stops for the additional cars.

b) Why we can't do as much of Europe does and have customs board the train 1 stop prior to the border and clear everyone while the train is moving.

I get where the latter doesn't work with a once per day per direction train schedule, but in a 6x per day shuttle model it should be feasible to coordinate such movements w/o too much hassle.

 

[Urban Sky]

Honestly I could see GO running an extension to Buffalo at some point to serve the Buffalo market - even just 1-2 trains a day.

The only way pre-clearance could work in Toronto is if they had "sealed" train cars on the train which contained trans-border passengers, as passengers can use the Maple Leaf for domestic trips within Canada. Even then, you would have issues with people boarding at Oakville, St. Catharines, etc. without preclearance. It would significantly shrink the wait at the border I guess at least as only those passengers would need clearance in Niagara Falls.

Another alternative, especially similar to the setup proposed in Windsor, is to have a handful of GO Trains run across the Niagara River to Niagara Falls NY to drop passengers off in advance of a connecting Amtrak service. NY State is looking at increasing services on their end, and with GO looking at more frequent Niagara services as well, you could run a decent cross-border connection a few times a day with the GO Trian timed to drop passengers off 30-45 minutes in advance of an Amtrak departure and vice versa, to give time for customs clearance. Hell, you could even just build a pedestrian crossing between the two stations.. they are all of 600 metres apart.

Of course this all comes back to how awful the US-Canadian border experience is in general for a border between two western nations.. a move to be much closer to the European model of border crossings would save a whole lot of hassle on many, many levels.. but that's a good ol' fantasy on my end as someone who crosses the border 4-6 times a year and is well sick of the existing setup.

GO has neither the mandate nor the legal framework (federal regulation) nor the appropriate fleet to operate „sealed cars“, „sealed trains“ or pretty much anything into the United States…

I appreciate what posters are saying above; I must confess, I don't see how we can let USCBP intransigence be the deciding factor in how service gets designed. They need to be overcome.

I don't see why we can't:

a) Seal select cars, and pre-clear at limited stops for the additional cars.

b) Why we can't do as much of Europe does and have customs board the train 1 stop prior to the border and clear everyone while the train is moving.

I get where the latter doesn't work with a once per day per direction train schedule, but in a 6x per day shuttle model it should be feasible to coordinate such movements w/o too much hassle.

It‘s not a question of what we Canadians believe to be possible, but what the Americans are willing to accept. Also, I‘m not sure how you want to seal certain cars only of an entire train, even if you were able to find some (evidently unavailable) space for a preclearance facility at Union Station…

 

[innsertnamehere]

when I was discussing sealed cars, I was thinking more so Amtrak trains, not GO. GO, if it ever managed to operate a cross-border service, would need to dump passengers for clearance.

The most I could see GO doing in reality is running over the river and dumping passengers in Niagara Falls NY for clearance and transfer to Amtrak trains. Alternatively, Amtrak could do the same to Niagara Falls, ON.

 

[micheal_can]

What benefit would there be for GO to run to Buffalo? The Maple Leaf is a daily service.

 

[Urban Sky]

when I was discussing sealed cars, I was thinking more so Amtrak trains, not GO. GO, if it ever managed to operate a cross-border service, would need to dump passengers for clearance.

The most I could see GO doing in reality is running over the river and dumping passengers in Niagara Falls NY for clearance and transfer to Amtrak trains. Alternatively, Amtrak could do the same to Niagara Falls, ON.

This is what the French and Spanish railways used to do at the border: They would cross the border and dump the cross-border passengers at the border station in the destination country (Cerbère and Hendaye in France or Port-Bou and Irún in Spain) and then return empty back over the border…

 

[crs1026]

What benefit would there be for GO to run to Buffalo? The Maple Leaf is a daily service.

Thousands of automobiles cross the border daily at Niagara/Fort Erie, many headed for places that could be served by train (Not just Buffalo itself.... a regional service that extends to Rochester is a good example)

Not only could GO/VIA derive a sustainable service out of this auto traffic, every passenger taken off the QEW is a car that won't be filling up an already congested highway.

- Paul