VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

How is there no VIA station in Paris - population 12,000 (and growing!) - while Ingersoll is the same population and gets service. Meanwhile St. Marys is only 7,300, Glencoe is 5,700, Wyoming is 7,600.

Even the oft-mentioned Smith Falls only has 8,800 (and shrinking since the early 1960s). Let alone the tiny villages along 7 which many assume will get some HFR service (Sharbot Lake is only 1,400!).

Looks like CN cut service sometime after 1967 - when the population was less than 6,500!

All those years living around there, and I never realised!

Paris is only 11km from Brantford.

That would be quite close for VIA stations.

That's not to say one shouldn't be considered, but its not as if there isn't VIA service nearby.

Edit to add: This was the train station - credit embedded in image

View attachment 374174

From this link: https://images.ourontario.ca/brant/63837/data

The image description:

View attachment 374175

I'm assuming that 1968 is when the last train called in Paris..........

The stop in Paris (last served by only one train pair per day: SARN@06:30=>Paris@08:34=>TRTO@09:59, TRTO@19:10=>Paris@20:41=>WDON@23:35 and Sundays also: WDON@18:00=>Paris@21:00=>TRTO@22:40) indeed disappeared with the April 1968 schedule.

In terms of distance between two subsequent stations along VIA's Corridor services, Cobourg & Port Hope is the only station pair between non-suburban stations which is closer than Brantford and Paris would be:

#10: BLVL-TRNJ: 12.1 miles (19.5 km)
#9: MTRL-DORV: 11.5 miles (18.5 km)
#8: OTTW-FALL: 9.5 miles (15.3 km)
#7: WDST-INGR: 9.4 miles (15.1 km)
#6: BRMP-GEOG: 8.1 miles (13.0 km)
#5: BRTF-Paris: 7.2 miles (11.6 km)
#4: CBRG-PHOP: 6.7 miles (10.8 km)
#3: MALT-BRMP: 6.0 miles (9.7 km)
#2: SLAM-MTRL: 3.8 miles (6.1 km)
#1: SFOY-CHNY: 3.2 miles (5.2 km)

Note: station pairs in italics may be considered as suburban (i.e. within the same CMA)

I know VIA cut a lot of stations along that line in the 90s. Dundas (Hamilton) was one of them.

As I've shown in this short operational history last month, the respective VIA stations in Hamilton, Dundas and Burlington were consolidated in May 1992 into one new station (newly opened and operated by GO) in Aldershot...

 

[roger1818]

I was wondering when was the last time VIA built a new corridor station in a community where one hasn't been for decades if ever (rather than rebuilding or relocating an existing station). On the top of my head (though I could be proven wrong), Fallowfield is the most recent (it opened in 2002), and is, as @Urban Sky said, is 15 km from the Ottawa Train Station. Even if you only look at the population of "South Nepean" (the station serves most of western Ottawa, including the larger community of Kanata), according to this document, it already had a population of 54,950 in 2006 (about 4 times the population of Paris), and it now has an estimated population of 92,920.

 

[ShonTron]

Fallowfield is the only real new station added since VIA’s founding. More were closed, even on the corridor. (Prescott, Watford, Maxville).

A few stations were moved: Aldershot, of course, but also Smiths Falls (to better operate trains across CP’s mainline) and Edmonton (as CN abandoned the downtown route).

New station buildings replaced older CN stations in Windsor, Oshawa, Oakville, Belleville, and London, but the station itself never moved. In a few smaller towns, small shelters replaced buildings (Strathroy, Ingersoll, Grimsby).

Paris wouldn’t be a terrible stop for a commuter-focused weekday train, but is otherwise pretty close to Brantford, and there is on-demand transit connecting the two: Brant eRide will drop customers anywhere within the City of Brantford, particularly the hospital, downtown transit terminal, and the VIA station.

 

[Urban Sky]

I think it can definitely be considered as part of an all stop service. The express service can bypass it.

All examples of inter-station distances of 12 km or less for intercity trains (i.e. IC/EC/ICE/ECE) in Germany I can think of are either intra-metropolitan (e.g. Hamburg Hbf<=>Hamburg Dammtor: 1km, Berlin Hbf<=>Berlin-Südkreuz: 6 km, München Hbf<=>München-Pasing: 8 km or Frankfurt Hbf<=>Frankfurt Flughafen/Airport Fernbahnhof: 11 km) or between major cities (e.g. Duisburg Hbf - Oberhausen Hbf: 8 km, or Wiesbaden Hbf - Mainz Hbf: 10 km).

Just to give an impression of what kind of "major cities" we are talking about (all population figures are for 2015 within their city limits only, i.e. not directly comparable with Canadian CMA figures):

• Duisburg: Germany's 15th-largest city with 490k inhabitants and host of its fourth-busiest port
• Oberhausen: 36th-largest city with 211k
• Wiesbaden: 24th-largest city with 276k and state capital of Hessen (which includes Frankfurt)
• Mainz: 38th-largest city with 210k and state capital of Rheinland-Pfalz

 

[jamincan]

I don't believe the station building exists in Paris anymore either.

 

[roger1818]

I don't believe the station building exists in Paris anymore either.

According to this article, the Helen St. railway station (in Paris, ON), was demolished in 1969

 

[Urban Sky]

According to this article, the Helen St. railway station (in Paris, ON), was demolished in 1969

Here a quick map (courtesy the excellent Ontario Railway Map Collection) showing the station building locations for Paris Junction (center left, green pin next to "Tito's Pizza and Wings") and Paris (bottom right, green pin next to the river):

And here a photo of the Paris Station at Helen Street:

Paris Railway Station, c. 1928

This photograph depicts the Canadian National railway station in Paris. It was built to replace the older junction station in 1907, and was used until 1968. This image was printed on the ...

images.ourontario.ca

I assume that one of the problems would be to create enough parking spaces near the former location of Paris Station, if that city was to ever be placed back onto VIA's network map. Therefore, I assume that Paris Junction would be the more appropriate location, a bit like in Napanee (yet another former Junction Station):

 

[kEiThZ]

We don't need more stations. We need fewer stations with higher frequencies and more inter-modal transport (bus services) in the Corridor. For example, I'd shut Port Hope, consolidate at Coburg and put on a shuttle bus for ever Coburg arrival and departure. Ditto for say Saint Mary. Consolidate at Stratford. Kinda like what Amtrak does in many places. This actually increases options for smaller cities. It would also allow for some addition, with places like Paris.

 

[roger1818]

We don't need more stations. We need fewer stations with higher frequencies and more inter-modal transport (bus services) in the Corridor. For example, I'd shut Port Hope, consolidate at Coburg and put on a shuttle bus for ever Coburg arrival and departure. Ditto for say Saint Mary. Consolidate at Stratford. Kinda like what Amtrak does in many places. This actually increases options for smaller cities. It would also allow for some addition, with places like Paris.

For VIA, I agree 100%. Those smaller stations would be better as GO stations, if and when GO is extended that far.

 

[Northern Light]

Here a quick map (courtesy the excellent Ontario Railway Map Collection) showing the station building locations for Paris Junction (center left, green pin next to "Tito's Pizza and Wings") and Paris (bottom right, green pin next to the river):
View attachment 374287

And here a photo of the Paris Station at Helen Street:

Paris Railway Station, c. 1928

This photograph depicts the Canadian National railway station in Paris. It was built to replace the older junction station in 1907, and was used until 1968. This image was printed on the ...

images.ourontario.ca

I assume that one of the problems would be to create enough parking spaces near the former location of Paris Station, if that city was to ever be placed back onto VIA's network map. Therefore, I assume that Paris Junction would be the more appropriate location, a bit like in Napanee (yet another former Junction Station):

View attachment 374289

Streetview of the Helen St. site noted above:

Different Angle:

Paris Junction site: (first from Railway Street)

Then from Market St.

Looking east from Market Street we see the abandoned but still present ROW of an old line:

Aerial view of same ROW:

Finally, an aerial of the abandoned junction just to the west:

 

[nfitz]

We don't need more stations. We need fewer stations with higher frequencies and more inter-modal transport (bus services) in the Corridor. For example, I'd shut Port Hope, consolidate at Coburg and put on a shuttle bus for ever Coburg arrival and departure. Ditto for say Saint Mary. Consolidate at Stratford. Kinda like what Amtrak does in many places. This actually increases options for smaller cities. It would also allow for some addition, with places like Paris.

We need both.

 

[kEiThZ]

We need both.

Disagree. We don't need VIA to become a suburban commuter rail service. Towns of less than 10k don't need 10 trains a day with a handful of people embarking on each one.

If ridership per departure is less than what would fit in a shuttle bus, run a shuttle bus to the next station and increase frequencies there. And then use that opportunity to run shuttles to more surrounding towns. Having intercity service in the Corridor shouldn't just be based on winning the VIA lottery.

 

[smallspy]

Disagree. We don't need VIA to become a suburban commuter rail service. Towns of less than 10k don't need 10 trains a day with a handful of people embarking on each one.

You realize that it's not "all or nothing", right? Not every single train needs to stop at every single station?

In fact, of the 26-ish trains that passed Port Hope, Cobourg and Trenton each day prior to the COVID lockdown, I think that there were only 3 trains scheduled to stop at all three.

Dan

 

[kEiThZ]

You realize that it's not "all or nothing", right? Not every single train needs to stop at every single station?

In fact, of the 26-ish trains that passed Port Hope, Cobourg and Trenton each day prior to the COVID lockdown, I think that there were only 3 trains scheduled to stop at all three.

Dan

Yes, I realize this. However, any time they get a station, they get a handful of sub-optimally timed stops instead of a full slate of connections. Moreover, this practice of granting stations to low ridership locations sets a precedent which results in other towns along the route demanding similar service. Eventually, the overall intermetro service is reduced to crap because of the need to stop at every podunk town en route.

If we had HFR focusing on connecting the major metros, I'd say it's fine to have all-stop service on the Lakeshore. But instead we're now discussing HFR stopping at towns of a few thousand where you might be able to count passengers embarking on a hand with missing fingers. Imagine delaying hundreds of passengers from Toronto going to Ottawa to pick up 2-3 people in Sharbot Lake.

If we want VIA to get better, we really have to move past this provincial nonsense of viewing rail service through some 19th century lens where it stopped at every town and took 7 hrs between major cities. VIA won't survive very long if it tries to keep up that model in the 21st century.

 

[Bordercollie]

Yes, I realize this. However, any time they get a station, they get a handful of sub-optimally timed stops instead of a full slate of connections. Moreover, this practice of granting stations to low ridership locations sets a precedent which results in other towns along the route demanding similar service. Eventually, the overall intermetro service is reduced to crap because of the need to stop at every podunk town en route.

If we had HFR focusing on connecting the major metros, I'd say it's fine to have all-stop service on the Lakeshore. But instead we're now discussing HFR stopping at towns of a few thousand where you might be able to count passengers embarking on a hand with missing fingers. Imagine delaying hundreds of passengers from Toronto going to Ottawa to pick up 2-3 people in Sharbot Lake.

If we want VIA to get better, we really have to move past this provincial nonsense of viewing rail service through some 19th century lens where it stopped at every town and took 7 hrs between major cities. VIA won't survive very long if it tries to keep up that model in the 21st century.

But I think it would be good to have local and express trains provided that you can time transfers between them. Perhaps VIA runs express trains and GO run local ones? Or something to that extent, but buses to feed the stations should for sure be a requirement.