VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

I think it can definitely be considered as part of an all stop service. The express service can bypass it.

All examples of inter-station distances of 12 km or less for intercity trains (i.e. IC/EC/ICE/ECE) in Germany I can think of are either intra-metropolitan (e.g. Hamburg Hbf<=>Hamburg Dammtor: 1km, Berlin Hbf<=>Berlin-Südkreuz: 6 km, München Hbf<=>München-Pasing: 8 km or Frankfurt Hbf<=>Frankfurt Flughafen/Airport Fernbahnhof: 11 km) or between major cities (e.g. Duisburg Hbf - Oberhausen Hbf: 8 km, or Wiesbaden Hbf - Mainz Hbf: 10 km).

Just to give an impression of what kind of "major cities" we are talking about (all population figures are for 2015 within their city limits only, i.e. not directly comparable with Canadian CMA figures):

• Duisburg: Germany's 15th-largest city with 490k inhabitants and host of its fourth-busiest port
• Oberhausen: 36th-largest city with 211k
• Wiesbaden: 24th-largest city with 276k and state capital of Hessen (which includes Frankfurt)
• Mainz: 38th-largest city with 210k and state capital of Rheinland-Pfalz

 

[jamincan]

I don't believe the station building exists in Paris anymore either.

 

[roger1818]

I don't believe the station building exists in Paris anymore either.

According to this article, the Helen St. railway station (in Paris, ON), was demolished in 1969

 

[Urban Sky]

According to this article, the Helen St. railway station (in Paris, ON), was demolished in 1969

Here a quick map (courtesy the excellent Ontario Railway Map Collection) showing the station building locations for Paris Junction (center left, green pin next to "Tito's Pizza and Wings") and Paris (bottom right, green pin next to the river):

And here a photo of the Paris Station at Helen Street:

Paris Railway Station, c. 1928

This photograph depicts the Canadian National railway station in Paris. It was built to replace the older junction station in 1907, and was used until 1968. This image was printed on the ...

images.ourontario.ca

I assume that one of the problems would be to create enough parking spaces near the former location of Paris Station, if that city was to ever be placed back onto VIA's network map. Therefore, I assume that Paris Junction would be the more appropriate location, a bit like in Napanee (yet another former Junction Station):

 

[kEiThZ]

We don't need more stations. We need fewer stations with higher frequencies and more inter-modal transport (bus services) in the Corridor. For example, I'd shut Port Hope, consolidate at Coburg and put on a shuttle bus for ever Coburg arrival and departure. Ditto for say Saint Mary. Consolidate at Stratford. Kinda like what Amtrak does in many places. This actually increases options for smaller cities. It would also allow for some addition, with places like Paris.

 

[roger1818]

We don't need more stations. We need fewer stations with higher frequencies and more inter-modal transport (bus services) in the Corridor. For example, I'd shut Port Hope, consolidate at Coburg and put on a shuttle bus for ever Coburg arrival and departure. Ditto for say Saint Mary. Consolidate at Stratford. Kinda like what Amtrak does in many places. This actually increases options for smaller cities. It would also allow for some addition, with places like Paris.

For VIA, I agree 100%. Those smaller stations would be better as GO stations, if and when GO is extended that far.

 

[Northern Light]

Here a quick map (courtesy the excellent Ontario Railway Map Collection) showing the station building locations for Paris Junction (center left, green pin next to "Tito's Pizza and Wings") and Paris (bottom right, green pin next to the river):
View attachment 374287

And here a photo of the Paris Station at Helen Street:

Paris Railway Station, c. 1928

This photograph depicts the Canadian National railway station in Paris. It was built to replace the older junction station in 1907, and was used until 1968. This image was printed on the ...

images.ourontario.ca

I assume that one of the problems would be to create enough parking spaces near the former location of Paris Station, if that city was to ever be placed back onto VIA's network map. Therefore, I assume that Paris Junction would be the more appropriate location, a bit like in Napanee (yet another former Junction Station):

View attachment 374289

Streetview of the Helen St. site noted above:

Different Angle:

Paris Junction site: (first from Railway Street)

Then from Market St.

Looking east from Market Street we see the abandoned but still present ROW of an old line:

Aerial view of same ROW:

Finally, an aerial of the abandoned junction just to the west:

 

[nfitz]

We don't need more stations. We need fewer stations with higher frequencies and more inter-modal transport (bus services) in the Corridor. For example, I'd shut Port Hope, consolidate at Coburg and put on a shuttle bus for ever Coburg arrival and departure. Ditto for say Saint Mary. Consolidate at Stratford. Kinda like what Amtrak does in many places. This actually increases options for smaller cities. It would also allow for some addition, with places like Paris.

We need both.

 

[kEiThZ]

We need both.

Disagree. We don't need VIA to become a suburban commuter rail service. Towns of less than 10k don't need 10 trains a day with a handful of people embarking on each one.

If ridership per departure is less than what would fit in a shuttle bus, run a shuttle bus to the next station and increase frequencies there. And then use that opportunity to run shuttles to more surrounding towns. Having intercity service in the Corridor shouldn't just be based on winning the VIA lottery.

 

[smallspy]

Disagree. We don't need VIA to become a suburban commuter rail service. Towns of less than 10k don't need 10 trains a day with a handful of people embarking on each one.

You realize that it's not "all or nothing", right? Not every single train needs to stop at every single station?

In fact, of the 26-ish trains that passed Port Hope, Cobourg and Trenton each day prior to the COVID lockdown, I think that there were only 3 trains scheduled to stop at all three.

Dan

 

[kEiThZ]

You realize that it's not "all or nothing", right? Not every single train needs to stop at every single station?

In fact, of the 26-ish trains that passed Port Hope, Cobourg and Trenton each day prior to the COVID lockdown, I think that there were only 3 trains scheduled to stop at all three.

Dan

Yes, I realize this. However, any time they get a station, they get a handful of sub-optimally timed stops instead of a full slate of connections. Moreover, this practice of granting stations to low ridership locations sets a precedent which results in other towns along the route demanding similar service. Eventually, the overall intermetro service is reduced to crap because of the need to stop at every podunk town en route.

If we had HFR focusing on connecting the major metros, I'd say it's fine to have all-stop service on the Lakeshore. But instead we're now discussing HFR stopping at towns of a few thousand where you might be able to count passengers embarking on a hand with missing fingers. Imagine delaying hundreds of passengers from Toronto going to Ottawa to pick up 2-3 people in Sharbot Lake.

If we want VIA to get better, we really have to move past this provincial nonsense of viewing rail service through some 19th century lens where it stopped at every town and took 7 hrs between major cities. VIA won't survive very long if it tries to keep up that model in the 21st century.

 

[Bordercollie]

Yes, I realize this. However, any time they get a station, they get a handful of sub-optimally timed stops instead of a full slate of connections. Moreover, this practice of granting stations to low ridership locations sets a precedent which results in other towns along the route demanding similar service. Eventually, the overall intermetro service is reduced to crap because of the need to stop at every podunk town en route.

If we had HFR focusing on connecting the major metros, I'd say it's fine to have all-stop service on the Lakeshore. But instead we're now discussing HFR stopping at towns of a few thousand where you might be able to count passengers embarking on a hand with missing fingers. Imagine delaying hundreds of passengers from Toronto going to Ottawa to pick up 2-3 people in Sharbot Lake.

If we want VIA to get better, we really have to move past this provincial nonsense of viewing rail service through some 19th century lens where it stopped at every town and took 7 hrs between major cities. VIA won't survive very long if it tries to keep up that model in the 21st century.

But I think it would be good to have local and express trains provided that you can time transfers between them. Perhaps VIA runs express trains and GO run local ones? Or something to that extent, but buses to feed the stations should for sure be a requirement.

 

[kEiThZ]

But I think it would be good to have local and express trains provided that you can time transfers between them. Perhaps VIA runs express trains and GO run local ones? Or something to that extent, but buses to feed the stations should for sure be a requirement.

Okay. Pony up the extra few billion to build the track capacity that allows for mixed operation.

There's all kinds of great things VIA could do if money rained down on them like a hip hop music video. Alas, we are finding it incredibly difficult just to approve what is supposed to be an express inter-metro corridor. And we're already bargaining service down on that one, before a shovel is in the ground.

Hard choices have to be made. Because if the current trends keep up, most here are likely to be around for the full privatization of VIA (and end of service as we know it).

 

[nfitz]

But instead we're now discussing HFR stopping at towns of a few thousand where you might be able to count passengers embarking on a hand with missing fingers.

That would eliminate service to Smiths Falls then. And HFR would run non-stop from Fallowfield to Peterborough.

Imagine delaying hundreds of passengers from Toronto going to Ottawa to pick up 2-3 people in Sharbot Lake.

I'd imagine that those going from Toronto to Ottawa would be taking an frequent express, not an irregular milk-run.

 

[lrt's friend]

We are assuming all kinds of things here.

First, not every little hick town is going to get service on HFR simply because someone brings it up.

Second, there are no plans to extend GO trains beyond Bowmanville.

Third, there are no plans to provide connecting bus service if we close existing VIA stations nor is it likely to make economic sense to provide a bus for two or three passengers. So, the outcome of closing stations will be no service at all.

Fourth, the HFR plan is designed to make the Lakeshore route for local service. So, why would we not want to have more trains stop at more stations to make sure that we maximize ridership? Effectively the Lakeshore route becomes GO all the way to Kingston although operated by VIA.