MisterF
Senior Member
Because when we have multiple threads about intercity rail there will inevitably be spillover between them. I don't see the big deal.
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
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crs1026
Superstar
In this case, I would take the digression as a compliment. Some of the discussion in that thread is so off the wall, I find myself heading here for a more level headed, fact-based discussion and readership, even if it's technically off topic .
At the risk of heading off into yet another thread..... and approaching this as a generic case study, rather than a discussion of service the Nippissing area.... if a provincial or regional agency announced that it was willing to underwrite a passenger service to a large center such as Toronto, why would VIA not want to be the provider of choice? Especially if (as you suggested above) the service left said big center in the morning, and returned by night? Likely a far better business case to operate using a generic VIA trainset, operating out of VIA's maintenance and OBS infrastructure, than having the purchaser of the service attempt to procure, maintain and stock its own trains from a base at the outer end of the run, duplicating VIA's infrastructure?
I sense a reluctance to seize that as a business opportunity?
- Paul
Allandale25
Senior Member
kEiThZ
Superstar
What constitutes "underservice" is debatable. There's a minimum threshold required for service. Kingston isn't exactly a low ridership station.
kEiThZ
Superstar
This take from Transport Action Canada is really disappointing. If anybody should know better....
1) How exactly are high frequency LRT and a heavy rail train supposed to share that corridor?
2) Why would CDPQ buying infrastructure elsewhere imply an obligation to support HFR? They're a pension fund whose mandate is to generate returns above all else.
kEiThZ
Superstar
This.
I really want VIA's brand to become stronger. And the only way to really do that is the Amtrak state supported corridors model. There's more than a few places in Canada this could work. I wonder how much the feds have explored this and talked to the provinces about any of these.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Why is that? In fact it is one of the highest. My take is that if it is within a reasonable distance of a major centre, and if air travel exists between the 2 locals, a regular passenger service rail route might work. Does it need to be separate from existing service? Not necessarily, but it could be, I always go back tot he fact that there is not a thru train from Windsor to Quebec City. You need to transfer at least once to get the whole way.
For the Canadian and the Ocean, they could have smaller parts to it. For instance, one between Sudbury and Toronto. Even the Ocean would be better if it had a Moncton to Halifax run as well. This is where the underserved comes in.If course it is debatable. Much of what we discuss on forums is debatable.
Something I fully agree. It would be nice to see each province also provide funding. Then maybe having the Northlander served by Via will make sense. One could speculate a lot of the other routes that have been cut in the last 50 years might come back.
kEiThZ
Superstar
This is a poor definition given that air service to a lot of communities consists of oversized puddle jumpers in Canada. And given that passenger rail service would have to operate with freight, there's limited attraction to air passengers to switch. A far better gauge is how much bus service and car traffic there is between the two terminal cities and all the points in between.
A thru train would be a poor idea. It would result in cascading delays, massively hurting one-time performance. Thru trains only make sense where VIA can control the tracks. If HFR goes westward, they'll probably consider thru service.
This starts getting into regional services that are outside VIA's mandate and well outside the affordability envelope of VIA. This is why I said, for such ideas, the provinces have to step up with funding. Even just offering to cover operational costs would go a long way to at least convince the feds to par for some equipment. In the US, the states pay for rolling stock and cover the the operating costs of the state corridors Amtrak runs. Our issue in Canada is that far too many provinces don't want to lift a finger for intercity transport and mostly just pin it all on one national rail service with an absolutely miniscule budget.
micheal_can
Senior Member
I would think the places I mentioned would have enough for a single daily Short Charger set. Passenger air ha to deal with bigger planes from everywhere, including international. If they could, they would cancel all those regional flights. However, the companies know they are worth having. Westjet only ran 737s. So, if a location could not fill it, it did not get service there. Air Canada flew all types and sizes to match the demand. If they had stuck with a similar attitude,, then no flights would happen. Doesn't mean it should do that either.
You are telling me that thru service would hurt on time performance to the point that it would become useless for all but train nuts? Sounds like every other service. Which is why breaking up the other routes would actually make them successful. I would say keep the existing long trains for the 3x a week. Add additional service where it could work the other times of the week.
Isn't everything west of Toronto operating like that? At least Moncton is in a different province than Halifax. What's he next argument? Distance? They are about the same distance. Windsor to Toronto is 369km, Sudbury to Toronto is 403km, and Moncton to Halifax is 260km. I am not suggesting 4 trips a day. I would suggest 1 trip a day, growing from that.
DSCToronto
Superstar
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Kingston is located with three major population centres about 3-4 hours away (even without HSR). Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa. If rail service does not work there it will work nowhere!
kEiThZ
Superstar
If all a place can support is a single short charger set per day, there's no point in rail service. They'd benefit way more from 5-6 bus departures per day. We need to think in terms of public transport than rail. The same logic that makes HFR attractive (high frequency) applies to buses too.
Context matters. Break up the Canadian and a missed connection could mean an unplanned overnight stay somewhere. A missed connection on a Corridor train means waiting for the next one.
micheal_can
Senior Member
If that is the case, cancel the short ones. Or maybe it is worth having them?
So, keep the long one, but also have smaller ones that supplement it.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Those are configurations. It's not like they are fixed or that trains are being bought specifically to operate that way forever. There different configurations are meant to give VIA flexibility matching demand on a given segment. For example, the short configs are going to be really useful out of the Kingston hub and for Corridor West. They'll be able to keep up frequencies by using shorter trains.
That requires funding, especially for a lot of the regional rail proposals. Lest we forget that VIA Rail is a $700M agency that takes in about ~$300M in subsidies. This is absolute peanuts. There's transit agencies that get more in subsidies than VIA's entire budget. The TTC, for example, is verging on nearly $800M in operating subsidies. Metrolinx takes in almost $150M annually. Just for comparison, Norway has an annual rail budget of nearly US$3B. The operating subsidy for operations and maintenance and passenger service is over double VIA's entire budget. Norway has fewer people than the GTA and is smaller than Newfoundland or the Yukon.
So there's literally no way to add new services unless the feds and provinces up the subsidy or if savings can be found elsewhere (possible with HFR).
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Bordercollie
Senior Member
If you were to allow municipalities and provinces to contribute then it would make it easier to expand services. Like Amtrak California or MDOT.
kEiThZ
Superstar
This is what me and @crs1026 keep saying.
That said, I question how motivated the provinces are to do anything. Our Western provinces didn't even want to keep Greyhound alive. Ontario was willing to shut down the Northlander than pay VIA to run it. And we're talking about finding tens of millions in a provincial budget of hundreds of billions. Everyone looks at the feds and VIA. Nobody is asking why the provinces don't step up.