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VIA Rail

If the ridership doesn't grow substantially with the Kingston hub, they'd be in trouble maintaining service, since they can't use TOM traffic to prop them up anymore. Ergo, why catering service to those who actually have jobs makes sense. Students and Army privates are far less schedule sensitive.

And it’s a retirement community, and seniors are not time sensitive. But I don’t know why you turn up your nose at the senior/student trade. All public transit - local, GO, and VIA - derive a huge ridership from this segment. Until Amazon moved into town, York University was Brampton Transit’s best customer. And while lots happens online, better linkage of universities for exchange use of labs, libraries, symposiums, etc. is both good for educators and good business for VIA.

By your logic, trimming VIA’s lesser but solid-performing stations and focussing solely on the HFr corridor bodes poorly for service to other University towns like Windsor, London, and Kitchener.

I’m eager to see the business plan, and to hear whether this route falls within HFR’s promise of “no subsidy”. You seem to agree with a point I have been making for a while....the Kingston Hub, even if exploited aggressively, may not run in the black..What is Ottawa’s reaction to that? Does the CIB accept the onus to cross subsidise from HFR net income?

When VIA made its much-cited trip to the Kingston Mayor, I doubt they said, “Look, the revenue we can make linking the Metro’s is so lucrative, we can afford to kick Kingston to the curb”. (Although they may have said this to the Minister, with cabinet privilege attached). What the Mayor reported will obviously take a happier tone. But I would not oversell the hub as value added, beyond the extended time of day options it offers.

While we have removed some topics to another thread, this thread should not be limited to only boosting HFR or rail serving the Big-Four Metro’s.. It’s fair to discuss how VIA should service the sub-HFR communities in Ontario-Quebec and what it will take to do that. I would hope that VIA is aiming to retain a mandate for that second tier service, and addressing the barriers to doing so effectively and economically.

- Paul
 
Does anyone have an update on the Siemens order? Should we be seeing trainsets arrive in 2021 (and entry to service in 2022) as projected in the order announcement?
 
From the post of mine that @Urban Sky reposted today, Belleville had 146,395 passengers in 2018. Divide by 365 (assuming equal ridership 7 days a week) and you get 401 passengers a day so about 200 each way.

Let's say 400 pax between the 24 departures Mayor Patterson was projecting. That's 17 pax per departure. Double that and it's still only slightly more than half an economy car. And the numbers from the other towns en route only get smaller....
 
But I don’t know why you turn up your nose at the senior/student trade.

Not so much turn up my nose as being realistic about the context.

Students and seniors aren't time sensitive. And are already a market captured by VIA. The only way to grow is to offer a schedule that does cater to the time sensitive. And this is exactly what VIA is attempting to do here with the Kingston hub.

The pining for the status quo is what I don't get. What exactly is good about the current service which only works for those who aren't time sensitive and those in big cities, and reduces demand in the large metros by extending travel time (because of all the intermediate stops)? Not to mention the cascading delays. I don't see anything redeeming in this model.

But I would not oversell the hub as value added, beyond the extended time of day options it offers.

You say this as though the schedule change doesn't add significant value. It does.

By your logic, trimming VIA’s lesser but solid-performing stations and focussing solely on the HFr corridor bodes poorly for service to other University towns like Windsor, London, and Kitchener.

Those aren't close to the university towns you make them out to be. Kitchener is a tech hub in Toronto's commuter shed now. London is the regional centre for Southwestern Ontario. And both of those cities are 3x the size of Kingston. Windsor has a metro of 4.3 million across the border, aside from being 50% larger than Kingston itself. And all of these cities would be on any future western HFR extension.

I’m eager to see the business plan, and to hear whether this route falls within HFR’s promise of “no subsidy”. You seem to agree with a point I have been making for a while....the Kingston Hub, even if exploited aggressively, may not run in the black..What is Ottawa’s reaction to that? Does the CIB accept the onus to cross subsidise from HFR net income?

HFR was originally pitched as making Corridor East net profitable. And I believe it. I think the Kingston hub will be quite successful at growing Lakeshore traffic. Heck, I think it's the only way to actually make the service grow: by optimizing around Kingston departures.

But even if cross-subsidy is required, I fail to see the huge challenge. Either the CIB accepts it, or some deal is worked out with the government to continue subsidizing Lakeshore service. And hopefully that level of subsidy will be less than commanded today, with fewer and smaller trains to subsidize. And hopefully higher load factors.
 
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Does anyone have an update on the Siemens order? Should we be seeing trainsets arrive in 2021 (and entry to service in 2022) as projected in the order announcement?

I'm starting to get a little bit worried about the cab-cars... Amtrak hasn't received theirs either, yet. :(
 
Saving for a budget splash?

I'm more curious about the JPO report than the actual approval announcement. The latter is formality to some extent. The former is the real meat that will tell us how they looked at and analyzed the situation and the various solutions.

Really hope as part of the JPO a detailed track plan is publicly released. Would be fascinating for people here to review.
 
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Not so much turn up my nose as being realistic about the context.

Students and seniors aren't time sensitive. And are already a market captured by VIA. The only way to grow is to offer a schedule that does cater to the time sensitive. And this is exactly what VIA is attempting to do here with the Kingston hub.

The pining for the status quo is what I don't get. What exactly is good about the current service which only works for those who aren't time sensitive and those in big cities, and reduces demand in the large metros by extending travel time (because of all the intermediate stops)? Not to mention the cascading delays. I don't see anything redeeming in this model.



You say this as though the schedule change doesn't add significant value. It does.



Those aren't close to the university towns you make them out to be. Kitchener is a tech hub in Toronto's commuter shed now. London is the regional centre for Southwestern Ontario. And both of those cities are 3x the size of Kingston. Windsor has a metro of 4.3 million across the border, aside from being 50% larger than Kingston itself. And all of these cities would be on any future western HFR extension.



HFR was originally pitched as making Corridor East net profitable. And I believe it. I think the Kingston hub will be quite successful at growing Lakeshore traffic. Heck, I think it's the only way to actually make the service grow: by optimizing around Kingston departures.

But even if cross-subsidy is required, I fail to see the huge challenge. Either the CIB accepts it, or some deal is worked out with the government to continue subsidizing Lakeshore service. And hopefully that level of subsidy will be less than commanded today, with fewer and smaller trains to subsidize. And hopefully higher load factors.
How exactly are they going to make Kingston a Hub when they only have two tracks? There is nowhere for trains to layover, so you would need to deadhead from Toronto in the morning to start trips there.
You could make the second platform an Island and put in another track on the other side, and add wayside power.

And there is a WYE at the Lafarge plant, but doesnt look long enough for a locomotive and 5 cars to clear the switch.
 
The pining for the status quo is what I don't get. What exactly is good about the current service which only works for those who aren't time sensitive and those in big cities, and reduces demand in the large metros by extending travel time (because of all the intermediate stops)? Not to mention the cascading delays. I don't see anything redeeming in this model.

It’s not opposition to change per se - it’s the observation that Kingston most typifies what HFR will look like, and I find it counterintuitive that VIA would sacrifice what they are working towards, where they have already built it and proven its value.

As you note, Kingston is smaller than other key cities, yet its ridership is disproportionate. I would attribute that to having the highest frequency of departures firstmost, and good timings also. If this is true, then adding frequency to Windsor, London, Kitchener would be compelling.

Kingston also has a choice of express and local trains. I have no data as to whether riders show preference for the expresses. VIA would know that. As a midpoint station that isn’t that many hours to each end, I would guess that the difference in trip times matters less than the wide choice of times. However, even for shorter runs I would predict that the general rider experience is subjectively different when a train makes many stops. So I am loathe to lose those, although that may just have to happen.

You say this as though the schedule change doesn't add significant value. It does.

Since COVID reduced VIA’s operations (and put me in front of my monitor so much more!) I have been watching VIA’s moving maps, and have had the benefit of chats with a few operating folks. My impression, supported by others’ comments, has been that VIA’s timekeeping has improved lately because there are fewer passenger trains out there (yet just as many freights).
What I have observed is that late trains seem to be able to recover from delays quite well with the current operating plan. If current conditions are a snapshot of how the line will look post-HFR, I would say the concern about cascading delays is less serious, and the operational value of splitting schedules at Kingston is lower. I would not be upset if VIa chose to do that, but in many cases their logistics might prefer that a trainset continue on in the same direction. In that case, I would say join the two schedules and not break it for the sake of configuring as a hub.

What’s disappointing is how often trains reach the limits of Metrolinx territory on time (sometimes even having recovered from delays) only to arrive at Toronto late, because (even with GO service cut back) VIA is run behind a slower GO train. The problem of VIA not having priority transcends freight vs passenger.

HFR was originally pitched as making Corridor East net profitable. And I believe it. I think the Kingston hub will be quite successful at growing Lakeshore traffic. Heck, I think it's the only way to actually make the service grow: by optimizing around Kingston departures.

But even if cross-subsidy is required, I fail to see the huge challenge. Either the CIB accepts it, or some deal is worked out with the government to continue subsidizing Lakeshore service. And hopefully that level of subsidy will be less than commanded today, with fewer and smaller trains to subsidize. And hopefully higher load factors.

I would keep it simple - leave HFR as a standalone profit/loss center, and leave Lakeshore service as a line item in the customary list of corridor services, with whatever cost recovery it earns, and let the overall subsidy to the Corridor include it. My rationale is that post HFR there will be a reckoning in Ottawa over the remaining Corridor shortfall. Ottawa will still be left in a quandry about whether to support services that don’t show full cost recovery.... and will have fewer options to invest in a separate right of way for these. I’m kind of guilty of trolling to draw that out. There will be people insisting on cutting the subsidy altogether, and VIA may not be able to justify expansion fast enough to prevent cutbacks.

I can envision HFR reaching London eventually, but unlike the East Corridor, there are no abandoned parallel corridors that can be reactivated. CN may assist, provided VIA sticks to the Stratford line, but we still have no public resolution of the Halwest to Georgetown corridor which they will be protective over. Entry to London, and increased frequency over the short stretch of CN west of town, will also be sensitive. New constuction may be cheaper, but land is scarcer and costs more, with strong local opposition as we saw in Oxford County.

That brings me back to the “topic that we must discuss elsewhere”.... the reality that even with the improvements in HFR, VIA will remain a tenant on others’ lines, and has inadequate stature to defend its interests. This applies to Kingston also - as CN volume grows, can VIA maintain that improved operation, and can it add more trains when business warrants it, or where it will support HFR? What VIA promised that Mayor may not be sustainable without both funding commitment and some clout to ensure priority.


- Paul
 
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I can envision HFR reaching London eventually, but unlike the East Corridor, there are no abandoned parallel corridors that can be reactivated.
- Paul

The GEXR corridor is a good candidate for HFR.

It was just sold to CN, but they bought it almost out of the fact that they didn't want to lose it. Its really underused for freight and is not a mainline by any stretch of the imagination.

Not only that, but it would make more sense for the HFR route to go through Kitchener.

I could easily see VIA buying the GEXR from CN between Kitchener and London, and putting passenger rail priority over freight on it, or adding another track from Kitchener to London in the corridor. The tracks are in bad shape and would need replacement anyways, and it was at one time double tracked, so theres room. Lots of at-grade crossings though, so for the time being would be 177kmh max.

^^ Its also important to note that this is no different than the portion of HFR from Toronto to Peterborough. That's not an abandoned corridor, its a currently owned and operated CP branch line, just like the GEXR line and CN. They share many similarities, its a lightly used corridor with tracks in poor shape.

In fact, the GEXR line has one advantage over the CP one to Peterborough, and that is that VIA already is operating trains on it, it gives them some clout.

The portion from Union to Kitchener is owned by Metrolinx (except the portion we all know between Bramalea and Georgetown) and would be easy to negotiate schedules with. Passenger rail lines, even if not owned by the rail company requesting their use, are always more accommodating to other passenger rail services. They already have the infrastructure in place, and while you might get stuck behind another train, its not a huge freight going 20kmh, its another passenger train trying to make good time.
 
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Wouldn't a Toronto-NYC rail line struggle a bit to compete with air travel? It couldn't really be all that direct with Lake Ontario in the way.
The obvious route to kick off frequent cross-border service would be Toronto-Detroit, as all what is needed from Amtrak is to move back into Michigan Central Station which is currently getting restored by Ford...
 
I didn't realize VIA still made paper trains. Got this today at Union. Great gift for young and young at heart railfans. If anyone wants one and can't get to Union, DM me and I'll send it (just send me the postage).

received_347033106726634.jpeg
 
As you note, Kingston is smaller than other key cities, yet its ridership is disproportionate. I would attribute that to having the highest frequency of departures.

I am going to suggest that a huge part of that ridership is simply the demand from Kingston being a university, garrison and retirement town that is also roughly equidistant to three major metros. Since Kingston is going to much of a cut in total trains serving it, there should not be much impact in a change in the number of trains. And more demand generated by a better schedule.


Kingston also has a choice of express and local trains. I have no data as to whether riders show preference for the expresses. VIA would know that. As a midpoint station that isn’t that many hours to each end, I would guess that the difference in trip times matters less than the wide choice of times. However, even for shorter runs I would predict that the general rider experience is subjectively different when a train makes many stops. So I am loathe to lose those, although that may just have to happen.

This obsessive focus on Kingston ignores all the other communities along the Lakeshore who don't get that level of service. Which presumably also impacts riders who want to travel along the Lakeshore and aren't bound for a major metro. They aren't well served right now either. But we know from what Mayor Patterson put up that there will at least be some express trains to Toronto.

My rationale is that post HFR there will be a reckoning in Ottawa over the remaining Corridor shortfall. The point of my concern is that Ottawa will still be left in a quandry about whether to support services that don’t show full cost recovery.... and will have fewer options to invest in a separate right of way for these. I’m kind of guilty of trolling to draw that out. There will be people insisting on cutting the subsidy altogether, and VIA may not be able to justify expansion fast enough to prevent cutbacks.

Worrying about what might happen post-HFR and using that to rationalize avoiding HFR is bizarre. And basically is a viewpoint that leaves VIA perpetually hostage to the current gradually failing status quo. Let's not forget, if there's no HFR and freight traffic keeps rising, VIA is screwed. VIA is going to keep seeing travel times worsen, fares rise and traffic fall. If there's no HFR, we may be looking at the end of VIA in a decade.

I can envision HFR reaching London eventually, but unlike the East Corridor, there are no abandoned parallel corridors that can be reactivated. CN may assist, provided VIA sticks to the Stratford line, but we still have no public resolution of the Halwest to Georgetown corridor which they will be protective over.

A good chunk of whatever happens West of Union will come down to what happens with GO RER and even plans for the Pearson Transit Hub. Getting to London may need new track or even a new corridor. That's fine. Worry about that when it's time.
 
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