VIA Rail

[Darwinkgo]

I had forgotten this for the JPO mandate:
“track work in Montreal’s Mont-Royal Tunnel to enable VIA Rail Canada’s heavy rail trains to operate on this segment of the Réseau express métropolitain (REM) light rail system”

This type of track sharing isn’t uncommon in Japan, even if pretty rare elsewhere in my understanding.

 

[kEiThZ]

Nobody, exactly. But that further proves my point: if I had to entrain in Oshawa or Belleville, en route to Montréal, what would be my options? Taking a 2 hour stopping regional to Kingston, and another 3 hour stopping regional from there to Montréal!? Or maybe taking the regional westward to Toronto, and then change to an HFR train!? What a perfect way to completely pull ridership apart. It's basically an assist to car travel.

This is where understanding local geography and culture might help.

If you're in Oshawa, you would simply drive or take transit to the proposed Eglinton station and start from there. Or, as some of us have suggested, VIA should build a GTA East station near Pickering which would also serve Oshawa.

If you're one of the maybe 10 people who want to go to Montreal from Belleville, you will have to transfer in Kingston. So what? You actually get a schedule that is less likely to have delays and departure times that are better for you.

And again, the concern for these towns is rather disproportionate. The population of Belleville is 50k (a third of Kingston). How many riders do you think they are generating per day?

 

[ec_traindriver]

Another issue with trying to get riders in a regional approach is that VIA has assigned seating and advanced ticket purchasing. Unlike GO or other regional services, you cant stand and you must have a seat, like a plane.

But, at the same time, they offer a commuter pass, that has something like 40 prepaid tickets a month.

Its a mess though, my friend used to work from Port Hope, and you had to pre-buy your ticket every day using the commuter pass.

If the trains full, I guess youre not getting to work!

That's the same here as well. Trenitalia (which, on a National level operates both HSR and conventional intercity services) too offers commuter passes; however, the reservation was compulsory on HSR services only. A few years ago compulsory reservation was extended to conventional intercity trains as well, while this isn't the case on the international Eurocity trains I operate. Passengers can buy a ticket without a reservation, although the number of sellable tickets is somehow limited. (I think it's roughly 120% of the total seat availability.) On our services, you can technically purchase a ticket on the train, without surcharges.

 

[roger1818]

The population of Belleville is 50k (a third of Kingston). How many riders do you think they are generating per day?

From the post of mine that @Urban Sky reposted today, Belleville had 146,395 passengers in 2018. Divide by 365 (assuming equal ridership 7 days a week) and you get 401 passengers a day so about 200 each way.

 

[ec_traindriver]

This is where understanding local geography and culture might help.

If you're in Oshawa, you would simply drive or take transit to the proposed Eglinton station and start from there. Or, as some of us have suggested, VIA should build a GTA East station near Pickering which would also serve Oshawa.

If you're one of the maybe 10 people who want to go to Montreal from Belleville, you will have to transfer in Kingston. So what? You actually get a schedule that is less likely to have delays and departure times that are better for you.

And again, the concern for these towns is rather disproportionate. The population of Belleville is 50k (a third of Kingston). How many riders do you think they are generating per day?

I don't know, therefore I raise my white flag on this. 🏳

From the post of mine that @Urban Sky reposted today, Belleville had 146,395 passengers in 2018. Divide by 365 (assuming equal ridership 7 days a week) and you get 401 passengers a day so about 200 each way.

EDIT: However, drawing on @roger1818 comment, one must take in consideration the potential ridership that would arise with better connections. If the service is unreliable, you get 400 passengers a day, that goes without saying.

 

[crs1026]

If the ridership doesn't grow substantially with the Kingston hub, they'd be in trouble maintaining service, since they can't use TOM traffic to prop them up anymore. Ergo, why catering service to those who actually have jobs makes sense. Students and Army privates are far less schedule sensitive.

And it’s a retirement community, and seniors are not time sensitive. But I don’t know why you turn up your nose at the senior/student trade. All public transit - local, GO, and VIA - derive a huge ridership from this segment. Until Amazon moved into town, York University was Brampton Transit’s best customer. And while lots happens online, better linkage of universities for exchange use of labs, libraries, symposiums, etc. is both good for educators and good business for VIA.

By your logic, trimming VIA’s lesser but solid-performing stations and focussing solely on the HFr corridor bodes poorly for service to other University towns like Windsor, London, and Kitchener.

I’m eager to see the business plan, and to hear whether this route falls within HFR’s promise of “no subsidy”. You seem to agree with a point I have been making for a while....the Kingston Hub, even if exploited aggressively, may not run in the black..What is Ottawa’s reaction to that? Does the CIB accept the onus to cross subsidise from HFR net income?

When VIA made its much-cited trip to the Kingston Mayor, I doubt they said, “Look, the revenue we can make linking the Metro’s is so lucrative, we can afford to kick Kingston to the curb”. (Although they may have said this to the Minister, with cabinet privilege attached). What the Mayor reported will obviously take a happier tone. But I would not oversell the hub as value added, beyond the extended time of day options it offers.

While we have removed some topics to another thread, this thread should not be limited to only boosting HFR or rail serving the Big-Four Metro’s.. It’s fair to discuss how VIA should service the sub-HFR communities in Ontario-Quebec and what it will take to do that. I would hope that VIA is aiming to retain a mandate for that second tier service, and addressing the barriers to doing so effectively and economically.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Does anyone have an update on the Siemens order? Should we be seeing trainsets arrive in 2021 (and entry to service in 2022) as projected in the order announcement?

 

[kEiThZ]

From the post of mine that @Urban Sky reposted today, Belleville had 146,395 passengers in 2018. Divide by 365 (assuming equal ridership 7 days a week) and you get 401 passengers a day so about 200 each way.

Let's say 400 pax between the 24 departures Mayor Patterson was projecting. That's 17 pax per departure. Double that and it's still only slightly more than half an economy car. And the numbers from the other towns en route only get smaller....

 

[kEiThZ]

But I don’t know why you turn up your nose at the senior/student trade.

Not so much turn up my nose as being realistic about the context.

Students and seniors aren't time sensitive. And are already a market captured by VIA. The only way to grow is to offer a schedule that does cater to the time sensitive. And this is exactly what VIA is attempting to do here with the Kingston hub.

The pining for the status quo is what I don't get. What exactly is good about the current service which only works for those who aren't time sensitive and those in big cities, and reduces demand in the large metros by extending travel time (because of all the intermediate stops)? Not to mention the cascading delays. I don't see anything redeeming in this model.

But I would not oversell the hub as value added, beyond the extended time of day options it offers.

You say this as though the schedule change doesn't add significant value. It does.

By your logic, trimming VIA’s lesser but solid-performing stations and focussing solely on the HFr corridor bodes poorly for service to other University towns like Windsor, London, and Kitchener.

Those aren't close to the university towns you make them out to be. Kitchener is a tech hub in Toronto's commuter shed now. London is the regional centre for Southwestern Ontario. And both of those cities are 3x the size of Kingston. Windsor has a metro of 4.3 million across the border, aside from being 50% larger than Kingston itself. And all of these cities would be on any future western HFR extension.

I’m eager to see the business plan, and to hear whether this route falls within HFR’s promise of “no subsidy”. You seem to agree with a point I have been making for a while....the Kingston Hub, even if exploited aggressively, may not run in the black..What is Ottawa’s reaction to that? Does the CIB accept the onus to cross subsidise from HFR net income?

HFR was originally pitched as making Corridor East net profitable. And I believe it. I think the Kingston hub will be quite successful at growing Lakeshore traffic. Heck, I think it's the only way to actually make the service grow: by optimizing around Kingston departures.

But even if cross-subsidy is required, I fail to see the huge challenge. Either the CIB accepts it, or some deal is worked out with the government to continue subsidizing Lakeshore service. And hopefully that level of subsidy will be less than commanded today, with fewer and smaller trains to subsidize. And hopefully higher load factors.

 

[ec_traindriver]

Does anyone have an update on the Siemens order? Should we be seeing trainsets arrive in 2021 (and entry to service in 2022) as projected in the order announcement?

I'm starting to get a little bit worried about the cab-cars... Amtrak hasn't received theirs either, yet.

 

[Allandale25]

Saving for a budget splash?

I'm more curious about the JPO report than the actual approval announcement. The latter is formality to some extent. The former is the real meat that will tell us how they looked at and analyzed the situation and the various solutions.

Really hope as part of the JPO a detailed track plan is publicly released. Would be fascinating for people here to review.

 

[ec_traindriver]

Really hope as part of the JPO a detailed track plan is publicly released. Would be fascinating to review for people here to review.

Pardon my ignorance: what exactly is a JPO?

 

[Allandale25]

Pardon my ignorance: what exactly is a JPO?

Details here from January 2020: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releas...-selected-as-owner-s-engineers-858078227.html

 

[Bordercollie]

Not so much turn up my nose as being realistic about the context.

Students and seniors aren't time sensitive. And are already a market captured by VIA. The only way to grow is to offer a schedule that does cater to the time sensitive. And this is exactly what VIA is attempting to do here with the Kingston hub.

The pining for the status quo is what I don't get. What exactly is good about the current service which only works for those who aren't time sensitive and those in big cities, and reduces demand in the large metros by extending travel time (because of all the intermediate stops)? Not to mention the cascading delays. I don't see anything redeeming in this model.



You say this as though the schedule change doesn't add significant value. It does.



Those aren't close to the university towns you make them out to be. Kitchener is a tech hub in Toronto's commuter shed now. London is the regional centre for Southwestern Ontario. And both of those cities are 3x the size of Kingston. Windsor has a metro of 4.3 million across the border, aside from being 50% larger than Kingston itself. And all of these cities would be on any future western HFR extension.



HFR was originally pitched as making Corridor East net profitable. And I believe it. I think the Kingston hub will be quite successful at growing Lakeshore traffic. Heck, I think it's the only way to actually make the service grow: by optimizing around Kingston departures.

But even if cross-subsidy is required, I fail to see the huge challenge. Either the CIB accepts it, or some deal is worked out with the government to continue subsidizing Lakeshore service. And hopefully that level of subsidy will be less than commanded today, with fewer and smaller trains to subsidize. And hopefully higher load factors.

How exactly are they going to make Kingston a Hub when they only have two tracks? There is nowhere for trains to layover, so you would need to deadhead from Toronto in the morning to start trips there.
You could make the second platform an Island and put in another track on the other side, and add wayside power.

And there is a WYE at the Lafarge plant, but doesnt look long enough for a locomotive and 5 cars to clear the switch.

 

[kEiThZ]

How exactly are they going to make Kingston a Hub when they only have two tracks?

I presume they'll have to build a facility somewhere and connect. That facility doesn't have to be at Kingston itself.