VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

That might be true for the current fleet (and requiring at least some deadhead moves of domes and RDCs on the back of Corridor sets, IIRC) but it might make more sense for a western route only bilevel maintenance to happen in Toronto, no? There is a huge bilevel maint facility right across the tracks from TMC, after all, and whoever does West Coast Express' maintenance might be able to offer facilities for wheelset replacement or whatever on that coast.

Sure, but you may want to ask yourself what kind of railroad would order a third fleet type for its overnight train network of only 10 trainsets (spread across 3 routes) which would be incompatible with the two existing fleet types (and wouldn’t even replace the fleet type which most urgently needs replacement) - and what kind of government would grant approval and funding for such a fleet strategy...

 

[dowlingm]

Sure, but you may want to ask yourself what kind of railroad would order a third fleet type for its overnight train network of only 10 trainsets (spread across 3 routes) which would be incompatible with the two existing fleet types (and wouldn’t even replace the fleet type which most urgently needs replacement) - and what kind of government would grant approval and funding for such a fleet strategy...

The fleet type that most urgently needs replacement - well the Charger sets are gonna replace what - the Corridor Rens, the LRCs that didn't get the refurb and some HEP2s? Cascading Canadian cars to Ocean - that's the sleeper Rens gone.

Those 10 trainsets are covering VIA's harshest and most remote routes with the exception of Jonquiere/Senneterre. Why should they not have reliable stock, and accessible low floor boarding rather than depending on traps, and a cabbage on the end for backup moves in Edmonton or when CN puts yet another freight on the ground. Not to mention the possibility of shortening the train lengths with the extra capacity and therefore being able to wye at TMC instead of the ridiculous move via the Newmarket and York subs to get out of Toronto.

Hell, if we are talking about minimising fleet types, why not cut bait on the token RDCs and base an F40+bilevel coaches+cabbage in Capreol to operate White River. Pretty sure there was some chat about going locohaul up there anyway a while back, and ensuing discussion about the wye at White River.

 

[kEiThZ]

Sure, but you may want to ask yourself what kind of railroad would order a third fleet type for its overnight train network of only 10 trainsets (spread across 3 routes) which would be incompatible with the two existing fleet types (and wouldn’t even replace the fleet type which most urgently needs replacement) - and what kind of government would grant approval and funding for such a fleet strategy...

Would the Chargers ordered work for long haul or would a different configuration be needed?

And since the Venture is derived from the Viaggio Comfort, of which there are configurations with sleeping berths, any idea if the Venture could be configured that way? I'm thinking like the ÖBB Nightjet. That would be fantastic for the Ocean at least.

 

[Urban Sky]

The fleet type that most urgently needs replacement - well the Charger sets are gonna replace what - the Corridor Rens, the LRCs that didn't get the refurb and some HEP2s? Cascading Canadian cars to Ocean - that's the sleeper Rens gone.

Those 10 trainsets are covering VIA's harshest and most remote routes with the exception of Jonquiere/Senneterre. Why should they not have reliable stock, and accessible low floor boarding rather than depending on traps, and a cabbage on the end for backup moves in Edmonton or when CN puts yet another freight on the ground. Not to mention the possibility of shortening the train lengths with the extra capacity and therefore being able to wye at TMC instead of the ridiculous move via the Newmarket and York subs to get out of Toronto.

Hell, if we are talking about minimising fleet types, why not cut bait on the token RDCs and base an F40+bilevel coaches+cabbage in Capreol to operate White River. Pretty sure there was some chat about going locohaul up there anyway a while back, and ensuing discussion about the wye at White River.

I really struggle to visualize your fleet strategy in my head. Would you mind listing the non-Corridor fleet types you would deploy, and specify the routes you would deploy them on and the maintenance centers where you would service them?

Would the Chargers ordered work for long haul or would a different configuration be needed?

Given that Amtrak seems to deploy their Chargers also on their long-haul routes, I don’t see why the same couldn’t be done north of the border. I’d also expect Amtrak to retire its P42s as soon as VIA receives its Chargers, just like they did with their F40s when VIA received its P42s...

And since the Venture is derived from the Viaggio Comfort, of which there are configurations with sleeping berths, any idea if the Venture could be configured that way? I'm thinking like the ÖBB Nightjet. That would be fantastic for the Ocean at least.

I would be surprised if any rolling stock supplier was willing to adapt its design to the North American market unless Amtrak places a much larger order than VIA’s 10 longhaul trainsets, but I agree that Siemens would be very well placed for supplying such an order - and as a German I would of course be delighted about an all-Siemens fleet...

 

[kEiThZ]

I would be surprised if any rolling stock supplier was willing to adapt its design to the North American market unless Amtrak places a much larger order than VIA’s 10 longhaul trainsets, but I agree that Siemens would be very well placed for supplying such an order....

This is what I'm curious about.

Presumably all the structural engineering requirements have been met when translating the Viaggio Comfort to the Venture model. So is it a lock of work to simply translate the interior fitment? Any idea? Because I would think if it's not that much work, doing so for even a 10 train set order might be economical enough. Especially, if they can then sell to Amtrak after.

 

[kEiThZ]

and as a German I would of course be delighted about an all-Siemens fleet...

Won't lie. I'm a little sad as a Canadian to see how far Bombardier has fallen in its home country.

 

[Urban Sky]

This is what I'm curious about.

Presumably all the structural engineering requirements have been met when translating the Viaggio Comfort to the Venture model. So is it a lock of work to simply translate the interior fitment? Any idea? Because I would think if it's not that much work, doing so for even a 10 train set order might be economical enough. Especially, if they can then sell to Amtrak after.

I’m sure it can be done, but the question is at what price, as any supplier submitting a new design (adaptation) for a tender would presumably want these 10 trainsets repay its design costs...

Won't lie. I'm a little sad as a Canadian to see how far Bombardier has fallen in its home country.

To cheer you up, the number of Bombardier-built trains operating in Germany will outnumber that of Siemens-built trains in Canada for a few more decades, as “Bombardier” is still ubiquitous in Germany:

Source: Wikimedia (Upload by user Geogast)

 

[kEiThZ]

I’m sure it can be done, but the question is at what price, as any supplier submitting a new design (adaptation) for a tender would presumably want these 10 trainsets repay its design costs...

I'd say it's more a matter of beggars can't be choosers. If VIA needs to renew its fleet, the price VIA would be willing to pay will be higher if there aren't many competitors.

What I'm curious about is how expensive engineering the interior is, as opposed to the structural design driven by FRA requirements. I would think it's less expensive than actually designing the structure of the Coach. Most interior fitment stuff is fairly mundane and universal.

To cheer you up, the number of Bombardier-built trains operating in Germany will outnumber that of Siemens-built trains in Canada for a few more decades,

Yeah but Bombardier Rail was effectively a German railmaker. So that's not a feat.

Say, does anyone know or recall what coach and loco Bombardier bid for the VIA fleet renewal contract?

 

[crs1026]

What I'm curious about is how expensive engineering the interior is, as opposed to the structural design driven by FRA requirements. I would think it's less expensive than actually designing the structure of the Coach. Most interior fitment stuff is fairly mundane and universal.

Are you referring to sleeper cars specifically or interiors generally? I think we had this discussion a while back. I recall posting some standards in this regard, can’t remember if it was FRA’s standards specs or others. For sleepers, the detail is a little more than one might think at first blush, as wiring, plumbing, emergency egress, ventillation, and fire safety considerations get complicated with so many confined cubicles and enclosed rooms. And some level of technology amenities may have to be installed, I would not assume that vanilla airline entertainment consoles would work without some amount of adaptation.
And then, the buyer will have plenty of druthers that have to be worked into the design. Some may be cosmetic but some (luggage stowage being a good example) might require moving stuff around, which might lead to more detailed redesign.
I was always amused to spot the British Railways logos on things like microwaves and fixtures in the Ren cars.....it would have been too onerous for VIA to redact them all.
Siemens or other vendors may already have generic engineering from past customers, but translation to North American expectations may drive more work. As a matter of economies of scale, I can’t see VIA ever reequipping its smaller long distance fleet without bumping into the question of the Canadian and Ocean fleet requirements. And that’s a much bigger debate.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I think one of the ongoing problems with Via is they have been forced to use second hand or worse equipment that once talk of replacing one part of the fleet, we start dreaming of new equipment elsewhere. If the government was to plan with Via to replace all equipment at 20 years old, we would have much newer fleet, and likely a much more reliable fleet. For an example, the RDCs are almost 60 years old. While there may be some nostalgia associated with the older equipment, there are inherent problems too.A problem the RCN faced with their older ships were the availability off spare parts. I know of instances where a part would be removed from one ship to install it on another so that it could go to sea.

If the government wanted to show it were serious about Via's fleet renewal, once the new rolling stock for the Corridor start to arrive, discussions on replacement of the RDCs and the rest should happen.

(Yes, I know the LRCs were new. The Renaissance cars were mothballed.)

 

[roger1818]

It was literally just a random dude who writes about trains saying that about 4 seems to be optimal because that's what the Irish use. And then, for some reason, you cut that down to 3.

Since we're going on opinion, I'd say 3-5 is probably about it. It depends on the operating profile of a given route and whether or not unpowered/undriven carriages are included in the consist. For a dozen DMUs out of a Kingston hub? I think DMUs could well be economical up to 4 cars.

First off, DMUs are probably great for the Kingston hub because of the number of stops they are including. Being able to accelerate back to cruising speed quickly is certainly an asset when the route has a stop every 30 km on average. Next, I based my math on your post from Kingston's mayor about 12 trains a day to Toronto and 6 each to Ottawa and Montreal, and assuming reciprocal service at the start of each day.

There are a total of 7 possible stops between Kingston and Toronto, but I wouldn't expect all trains to stop at all of them. Three of them in particular (Port Hope, Trenton Jct, and Napanee) might have more trains stop than today (prior to COVID), but not a lot more (the post from Kingston's mayor says there will be "Express trains to Toronto").

Given that the average trip time of these trains is 2.5 hrs +/- 15 min, with turn around times, a very generous estimate is 3 hrs per run or 6 hrs per roundtrip. That's at least 4-5 trainsets for Toronto-Kingston and 2-3 each for Kingston-Ottawa and Kingston-Montreal. Toss in a spare or two and another for the maintenance pipeline and it's easily in the 12-15 range.

That is almost exactly what I said, if you took the time to actually read my post (5 for Toronto, 2 for Ottawa and 3 for Montreal).

In a world with no spares and no longer term maintenance scheduling.....

I wasn't counting spares as they wouldn't be dedicated for a specific route. Besides, if using the Semmens trainsets, they would already have spares and wouldn't need to buy more (or at least not as many).

Fuel and other running costs (would CN cut a deal for less heavier rolling stock?) are usually much higher than maintenance costs. So the savings from commonality would have to be substantial along with minimal efficiency gains from deploying DMUs for this to be true.

Why do you think CN would "cut a deal for less heavier rolling stock?" Anything VIA puts on the tracks is light compared to what they are hauling. What CN doesn't like is VIA's speed.

Look at how many types VIA has now. In a world where they are down to just Chargers, Venture coaches and a DMU fleet, their operations and workforce would be substantially more streamlined than today. What this is then down to debating is specifically going even further to exactly one model of locomotive and one family of coaches.

I don't think it would be feasible for VIA to only have only "one model of locomotive and one family of coaches" coast to coast, but reducing the number of variations will greatly help reduce maintenance costs. The inventory of spare parts they need to keep would be much smaller and the staff would be much more familiar with the model of vehicle they are working on, knowing all of the ins and outs.

 

[smallspy]

Certain maintenance can only be performed at MMC. If the car doesn’t fit into Gare Centrale, you’ll have to run a deadhead train every time you need to move an oversized car between TMC and MMC...

On top of that....

The cars don't fit into the trainshed at Winnipeg, and probably don't fit into the trainshed at Union - which complicated operations when the cars were deadheaded across on the Canadian for work.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

You know.... other rail companies build new facilities to maintain their equipment. Why not build a new building to fit new equipment?
I keep touting the ONR and the Northlander. The yard in North Bay has seen new buildings since it' inception in 1902. One would imagine Via could do the same on an as needed basis.

 

[smallspy]

You know.... other rail companies build new facilities to maintain their equipment. Why not build a new building to fit new equipment?
I keep touting the ONR and the Northlander. The yard in North Bay has seen new buildings since it' inception in 1902. One would imagine Via could do the same on an as needed basis.

VIA is rebuilding their facilities in Montréal and Toronto to better deal with the Siemens equipment. What more do you want?

Dan

 

[Mcurtis]

Given that we didn't see much out of the federal government in its fiscal update beyond some additional support to VIA to help cover the losses due to Covid-19. Should we look to the states in terms of the Amtrak State Supported rail lines model to try and get more service to areas that are presently underserved. The high-speed rail thing comes up every once and a while as a bit of a gimmick to try and win political points. If Ontario, for example, was willing to support Via Rail with an Ontario-based service could that be a viable option to provide the necessary funding for adequate service to communities like Sarnia, London, and Ottawa? I don't personally ever see Metrolinx expanding to the distance where London would be a viable option for them and I think that it would stretch them to thin. VIA presently has the services there but it needs assistance in funding for new trainsets and operational funds. Do you guys think that there could be enough political will in these areas to try and find a way to support VIA rail through direct funding from the province to help pay for the missing intercity connections and additional train runs? If you had to guess for VIA to become a viable option for people to take and stop driving or drive less to get around. What type of frequency or regularity would be needed to do so?