VIA Rail

[roger1818]

Where would you terminate intercity trains arriving from Montreal and Ottawa? Oshawa? Kennedy? North Toronto?

While Oshawa is part of the GTA, it isn't "in" Toronto so it is obviously a hyperbole on your part. It also isn't on the HFR route.

Kennedy is a bit better, but it is still in Scarberia, and not near downtown.

If VIA was forced to leave Union, the old CPR North Toronto Station in Rosehill would be a decent alternative if VIA could buy it from the LCBO. It is only a couple hundred meter walk from Summerhill station for an easy transfer downtown and 8km from the 401.

Is it perfect? No, but far better than Kennedy or Oshawa.

As you quoted yourself, "Downtown to downtown service is key for intercity passenger rail success" and as someone who has participated in some of the discussions about the future of Union Station, I have no reason to doubt that all actors involved are serious in their commitment to act in the spirit of this imperative...

I am glad to hear that. When I brought it up in the past on the other forum we both contribute to, you refrained from commenting, which made me think that it was being kept as a possibility.

Indeed, once you close your rail station in the heart of a city's downtown and destroy the right-of-ways by replacing all tracks which led to it with roads and Highways, having your main station several kilometers further away from where it had been for more than a century might become an acceptable option...

Ya, the Gréber Plan had some very serious shortcomings.

I am curious though, if HFR gets built and someone were to find a way to reopen Ottawa's old Union Station, do you think that HFR trains be detoured to it? The current trains that terminate in Ottawa, sure, but my guess is VIA would treat it like Brussels Central Station and not use it for intercity rail and treat the current station like Bruxelles-Midi.

 

[Northern Light]

Why not just dig a tunnel? Montreal did that.

Keeping in mind this venturing towards fantasy as it is.......

A tunnel simply isn't necessary here.

There's ample room up top.

Also, the Canal here has not one but 2 roads along it at points making it less enjoyable recreationally.

A train certainly wouldn't make that worse (if it came in lieu of the current road space).

I would argue it would likely make it better w/less traffic, less noise, less pollution; subject to ensuring it didn't cut off pedestrian access to the canal.

 

[roger1818]

Keeping in mind this venturing towards fantasy as it is.......

A tunnel simply isn't necessary here.

There's ample room up top.

Also, the Canal here has not one but 2 roads along it at points making it less enjoyable recreationally.

A train certainly wouldn't make that worse (if it came in lieu of the current road space).

I would argue it would likely make it better w/less traffic, less noise, less pollution; subject to ensuring it didn't cut off pedestrian access to the canal.

I agree this is certainly venturing towards fantasy, but the issue is, as sche said, the Shaw Centre. If you want the tracks to fan out to multiple tracks and platforms, you need more space than is available, especially if you want to reuse Union Station. It would take an engineering study to confirm that it is even possible, I would think the best option would be to have the platforms under the station. You could run into drainage issues from the canal though.

Regardless there aren't any easy solutions and it wouldn't happen for several decades, if ever. Ottawa would need to grow large enough to benefit from commuter rail and right now the population density plummets once you get past Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans and many of the tracks that could have been used are gone.

 

[Northern Light]

Red is rail, Blue Colonel By Dr realignment to meet with Nicholas. Large section of Col By Dr is used for rail alignment.
Two tracks is 100% possible, only problem is space for the downtown station if the old station site were to be used.
View attachment 275066 View attachment 275065
Space is very tight where platforms would need to go, could probably only fit 2 tracks and a center platform without removing the path beside the Rideau canal or demolishing the Shaw Centre.
View attachment 275068
Or you could put the plaforms here and maybe fit 3-4 tracks + platforms, but they would be pretty short platforms
View attachment 275069

Assuming removing the Shaw Centre is not on the table, there's probably only room 2 tracks and 2 platforms.

Though, I'm not sure how much more Ottawa would routinely need these days.

Without the Shaw Ctr there, the bridge has space underneath for a couple of extra tracks there as well.

So you probably comfortably put back 4 tracks with wide platforms or 6 with narrow..

 

[micheal_can]

Keeping in mind this venturing towards fantasy as it is.......

A tunnel simply isn't necessary here.

There's ample room up top.

Also, the Canal here has not one but 2 roads along it at points making it less enjoyable recreationally.

A train certainly wouldn't make that worse (if it came in lieu of the current road space).

I would argue it would likely make it better w/less traffic, less noise, less pollution; subject to ensuring it didn't cut off pedestrian access to the canal.

I agree this is certainly venturing towards fantasy, but the issue is, as sche said, the Shaw Centre. If you want the tracks to fan out to multiple tracks and platforms, you need more space than is available, especially if you want to reuse Union Station. It would take an engineering study to confirm that it is even possible, I would think the best option would be to have the platforms under the station. You could run into drainage issues from the canal though.

Regardless there aren't any easy solutions and it wouldn't happen for several decades, if ever. Ottawa would need to grow large enough to benefit from commuter rail and right now the population density plummets once you get past Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans and many of the tracks that could have been used are gone.

Grand Central Terminal does not have a surface line to it. This is not fantasy, it is reality.

If Via wanted to go to the centre of Ottawa, a tunnel, of about 5 km or less would be all that is needed. For Union, an elevated or a tunnel for their platforms also could be done.

However, I doubt that any of this would be needed before HFR comes to the line. Even then, there are other options.to explore. The reality is that Union will only get busier and ignoring that will only ause more problems for travelers.

 

[roger1818]

Grand Central Terminal does not have a surface line to it. This is not fantasy, it is reality.

The fantasy is thinking that it might happen.

If Via wanted to go to the centre of Ottawa, a tunnel, of about 5 km or less would be all that is needed. For Union, an elevated or a tunnel for their platforms also could be done.

However, I doubt that any of this would be needed before HFR comes to the line. Even then, there are other options.to explore. The reality is that Union will only get busier and ignoring that will only ause more problems for travelers.

And after HFR it becomes undesirable as it would further add an extra 20-30 minutes to the Montreal-Toronto travel time. The current station in Ottawa will be VIA's home for a long time.

 

[micheal_can]

The fantasy is thinking that it might happen.

To Ottawa? Really, anything but status quo or anything that is outside what has already been made public

And after HFR it becomes undesirable as it would further add an extra 20-30 minutes to the Montreal-Toronto travel time. The current station in Ottawa will be VIA's home for a long time.

I was talking more about Union. The existing Via station in Ottawa will most likely be the one they operate out of for the long term..

 

[aquateam]

Why not just dig a tunnel? Montreal did that.

Are you referring to the Mont Royal tunnel built in 1918? The current REM plan doesn't involve any tunneling, except at the airport.

As great as it would be to directly connect to downtown Ottawa, I think that the Confederation line does a good enough job of that (including with a tunnel) that I don't see there being value in tunneling HFR. In most cities, tunneling through downtown is used to enable through-running of existing rail lines, this would be tunneling to create a spur and add to travel times.

Ya, the Gréber Plan had some very serious shortcomings.

I learned a lot of history about the Gréber Plan and the NCC through this site, which catalogs some of the worst mistakes made. It's amazing how anti-urban urban planning was in the 1960s. Whole swathes of Ottawa-Gatineau were depopulated, and Ottawa hasn't fully recovered from it.

 

[Northern Light]

Grand Central Terminal does not have a surface line to it. This is not fantasy, it is reality.

If Via wanted to go to the centre of Ottawa, a tunnel, of about 5 km or less would be all that is needed. For Union, an elevated or a tunnel for their platforms also could be done.

However, I doubt that any of this would be needed before HFR comes to the line. Even then, there are other options.to explore. The reality is that Union will only get busier and ignoring that will only ause more problems for travelers.

I was discussing the idea of VIA returning to downtown Ottawa, whether surface or any in any other way.

Its something I would love to see happen; but it most certainly isn't on the near-term horizon.

Beyond that......I do hope it is happens, one day.

 

[micheal_can]

Are you referring to the Mont Royal tunnel built in 1918? The current REM plan doesn't involve any tunneling, except at the airport.

As great as it would be to directly connect to downtown Ottawa, I think that the Confederation line does a good enough job of that (including with a tunnel) that I don't see there being value in tunneling HFR. In most cities, tunneling through downtown is used to enable through-running of existing rail lines, this would be tunneling to create a spur and add to travel times.

I was discussing the idea of VIA returning to downtown Ottawa, whether surface or any in any other way.

Its something I would love to see happen; but it most certainly isn't on the near-term horizon.

Beyond that......I do hope it is happens, one day.

The LRT does well to connect downtown.to the Via station. Unless Ottawa becomes a more major hub instead of just a connecting, there would never be a need for a downtown station. If it became a city like Montreal or Toronto where multiple trains go all over the place from it, then, maybe a downtown station might make sense. Moose Rail, or some other commuter rail system, and multiple LRT lines would all need to be serving one area downtown first before a downtown station would be useful.

 

[roger1818]

The LRT does well to connect downtown.to the Via station. Unless Ottawa becomes a more major hub instead of just a connecting, there would never be a need for a downtown station. If it became a city like Montreal or Toronto where multiple trains go all over the place from it, then, maybe a downtown station might make sense. Moose Rail, or some other commuter rail system, and multiple LRT lines would all need to be serving one area downtown first before a downtown station would be useful.

Thats exactly what we have been trying to say. Until there is demand for commuter rail in Ottawa, the idea of a downtown station (tunnel or no tunnel) is just a fantasy.

 

[micheal_can]

Thats exactly what we have been trying to say. Until there is demand for commuter rail in Ottawa, the idea of a downtown station (tunnel or no tunnel) is just a fantasy.

The issue is that with some of the proposals around the LRT and other rail projects, if any of them get moving, then this will move from fantasy to needed. Better to plan for the future than have to accept mediocrity. So, this idea of a downtown station is just on the edge of fantasy and reality.

 

[nfitz]

The LRT does well to connect downtown.to the Via station.

Do Ottawa riders find the current setup difficult? When I lived there in the 1980s, the transitway from Train station to downtown seemed very very easy. Especially compared to the long walk winding walk at Central station to Metro Bonaventure (which went through Place Bonaventure at that time).

 

[SFO-YYZ]

I think there's folks who advocate for the Summerhill Station. It would be workable, but far, far from optimal.

Also, since Ottawa doesn't have a station in the core, I think Ottawa rail fans assume the same model can work elsewhere.....

would love to see some level of service at Summerhill, but I have a feeling this isn’t going to fly well with the rich NIMBYs in the area, who would rather keep the current LCBO and hair salons and yoga studios in the area

 

[roger1818]

Do Ottawa riders find the current setup difficult? When I lived there in the 1980s, the transitway from Train station to downtown seemed very very easy. Especially compared to the long walk winding walk at Central station to Metro Bonaventure (which went through Place Bonaventure at that time).

I haven't used the O-Train to get to the train station yet, but from what I have seen, it would be even easier to use than the former transitway station in many ways, especially for visitors. The off peak frequency of service is higher, and there are ticket vending machines in the station, so you don't have to worry about paying onboard. Also with only one route so every train (in the correct direction) is the one you want. It uses LRT equipment but it operates as a light metro.