VIA Rail

[crs1026]

One last comment - coproduction seems to be happening up north Parry Sound to Sudbury, and in the west Kamloops - Mission, but that doesn’t mean anyone really likes it. Mention the topic to rail RTC’s or middle managers and you get a flood of testosterone. Inevitably one railway’s fastest freight will get stuck behind the other railway’s slowest train, and all they can do is fume, or worse. There are lots of tit-for-tat stories. It’s no different than how VIA is treated. The culture is win-lose not mutual win-win, except for the accountants who see the money saved.

For the life of me, I can’t understand why the freight railways don’t promote coproduction between Toronto and Montreal, as an alternative to HFR being built thru Peterboro. Say VIA will spend $2B- $3B on the Havelock line. Sell one of the two main lines to VIA for $1.9B, share freight use of the other line, and split the $1.9B. Shared use of one line will be cheaper than two separate lines, VIA will get a better quality line at lower cost, and the railways pocket a quick billion each. There is sufficient capacity for fifty years or more, by which time VIA may have a case for HSR and can give the second line back. The problem is moving away from the two competitive cultures. Being master of the house comes at a price, but the railways seem hellbent to pay it.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

A conundrum that is likely never to be resolved is the selective unwillingness by FNs to abide by the court's decisions

The Crown is bound by the same treaties and have been found to be in violation of their own terms all over the map.

This whole fight is ridiculous and should be resolved tomorrow. The Wet'suwet'en are not against pipelines in their unceded territory, they just want a routing change. Trudeau should get it done.

PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

It's simply Trudeau shys away from responsibility

urbantoronto.ca

 

[Northern Light]

It would appear that the motivating factor at Belleville is completely unrelated to the Wet'suwet'en issue out west.

The plot thickens.

This from the meeting of the Federal Minister w/the protesters/supporters, a private recording of which was shared w/CBC

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/chief-meeting-mohawks-1.5466109

 

[SunriseChampion]

This whole fight is ridiculous and should be resolved tomorrow. The Wet'suwet'en are not against pipelines in their unceded territory, they just want a routing change

The chumps at CGL didn't want to go ahead with the alternate route proposed by the hereditary chiefs years ago because it's ~90km longer and would cost more (obviously) and now they're using that as most of their excuse to not.

It really is a simple solution. I'm sure CGL can manage. Greed really is a bitch.

 

[SunriseChampion]

It would appear that the motivating factor at Belleville is completely unrelated to the Wet'suwet'en issue out west. There was an RCMP raid on a reserve......

The plot thickens.

This from the meeting of the Federal Minister w/the protesters/supporters, a private recording of which was shared w/CBC

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/chief-meeting-mohawks-1.5466109

Yeah, I myself am unsure what the RCMP are doing on land that doesn't belong to the Crown, enforcing Canadian laws that have no bearing there.

 

[Northern Light]

Yeah, I myself am unsure what the RCMP are doing on land that doesn't belong to the Crown, enforcing Canadian laws that have no bearing there.

I don't recognize it as belonging to anyone.

As such, I'll take it, and that settles the issue; seeing as I don't have to recognize Canadian courts, says one side; while the other says I needn't recognize the Wet'suwet'en.

I agree with both! I declare the land to be mine, everyone else off!

****

For the dense.........satire people

****

Though really, I consider this an unholy mess that isn't as easily addressed as some would have it.

 

[dowlingm]

This whole fight is ridiculous and should be resolved tomorrow. The Wet'suwet'en are not against pipelines in their unceded territory, they just want a routing change. Trudeau should get it done.

PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

It's simply Trudeau shys away from responsibility

urbantoronto.ca

I found this an interesting thread in attempting to explain (within the limits of available information) the challenges (political and technical) in respect of route choice.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1229068171589476353

As for the rights and wrongs, they are better off in the other thread. As a fairly recent settler with a child born here, I find the topic a complicated one, and envy the many I see on the internet who feel comfortable with expressing unnuanced views of these issues and associated developments.

 

[lenaitch]

It would appear that the motivating factor at Belleville is completely unrelated to the Wet'suwet'en issue out west. There was an RCMP raid on a reserve......

The plot thickens.

This from the meeting of the Federal Minister w/the protesters/supporters, a private recording of which was shared w/CBC

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/chief-meeting-mohawks-1.5466109

Sorry NL, but I don't get that from the story. Perhaps it's sentence structure used in the article. The way I understand things, the Belleville blockade is in sympathy of corporate and RCMP action in BC. Technically, the RCMP didn't raid a "reserve" since I don't think there is a formal one in the area under dispute - simply claimed unceded territory.

 

[Northern Light]

Sorry NL, but I don't get that from the story. Perhaps it's sentence structure used in the article. The way I understand things, the Belleville blockade is in sympathy of corporate and RCMP action in BC. Technically, the RCMP didn't raid a "reserve" since I don't think there is a formal one in the area under dispute - simply claimed unceded territory.

I have removed that specific assertion for now.

As it isn't substantiated by the article text.

However, there are references to blue coats, as well, which I take to be the OPP/

Also other descriptions of the discussion suggest something more than the obvious at play.

 

[lenaitch]

^ Often with 'in sympathy' demonstrations, the message can spread out depending on who shows up. I simply assume "red coat" and "blue coat" as analogues for state enforcement. If the military gets involved it may evolve to green coats.

 

[Richard White]

^ Often with 'in sympathy' demonstrations, the message can spread out depending on who shows up. I simply assume "red coat" and "blue coat" as analogues for state enforcement. If the military gets involved it may evolve to green coats.

Here is to hoping we don't have another Ipperwash on our hands.

 

[lenaitch]

Here is to hoping we don't have another Ipperwash on our hands.

Or Oka. People wishing to make soundbites seem to have short memories. Much as we wish this to end, there is no pretty or sterile way to impose force, and politicians/others who advocate aggressive intervention will be nowhere to be found in the aftermath, except perhaps to armchair that 'they did it wrong'. If they have the magic bullet, I'd like to hear it. True there are injunctions, but I hear no indications that the applicants are intending to go back to court to apply for an enforcement hearing (or the courts to initiate a contempt hearing).

 

[Richard White]

Or Oka. People wishing to make soundbites seem to have short memories. Much as we wish this to end, there is no pretty or sterile way to impose force, and politicians/others who advocate aggressive intervention will be nowhere to be found in the aftermath, except perhaps to armchair that 'they did it wrong'. If they have the magic bullet, I'd like to hear it. True there are injunctions, but I hear no indications that the applicants are intending to go back to court to apply for an enforcement hearing (or the courts to initiate a contempt hearing).

Perhaps this needs to be in its own thread to avoid going very much off topic. I was going to create one but I lack the appropriate permissions.

That being said, there really is no magic bullet but Ipperwash and Oka show how quickly things can get out of hand. Ipperwash was a case of mishandling the situation and someone dying.

Mike Harris was shown to be impatient and intolerant of the Ipperwash occupants and wanting to use "swift and affirmative action" to remove those occupying the park. That intolerance and impatience led to a riot and Dudley George being shot.

As much as I would love to see the protests continue they can only go on for so long before it impacts Canada as a whole. Eventually it will become a powder keg and ordinary Canadians will end up taking action after having enough of the inconvenience caused.

The government faces a choice. Remove the protesters in the name of National Security or end up with a bigger problem on their hands.

 

[crs1026]

Mike Harris was shown to be impatient and intolerant of the Ipperwash occupants and wanting to use "swift and affirmative action" to remove those occupying the park. That intolerance and impatience led to a riot and Dudley George being shot.

The OPP got a lot wrong internally at Ipperwash, but the bigger cross they bear is that they faithfully carried out Harris’ directions, thinking that if the Premier gave them an order, the right thing do do was obey it...... and then they discovered that Harris was off base, and then they got hung out to dry.

Make no mistake, the OPP’s caution in subsequent confrontations is not solely about avoiding bloodshed or public disfavour. It’s about realising that politicians may not be worth their salt. Just following orders is the worst thing they can do.

- Paul

 

[BurlOak]

A police officer is killed at Oka, and he is forgotten. Under Bourassa
A rioter is killed at Ipperwash, and Media still talks about it. Under Harris.
A native beats a non-native citizen to within an inch of his life, and it is forgotten. Under McGuinty.

Sometimes enforcing the law can get messy, but it is necessary to maintain civil order. In order protection priority is: Citizens, Police, Law Breakers.
Based on this, Harris handled the situation the best in the past 40 years of blockades.