VIA Rail

[NotAToy]

At the same time, it's kind of sad that the only rail route across Canada without a convinient alternative is in Southern Ontario. (Sourcce: RAC)
Do not bombard me with messages about Rouyn Noranda please.

 

[crs1026]

At the same time, it's kind of sad that the only rail route across Canada without a convinient alternative is in Southern Ontario. (Sourcce: RAC)
Do not bombard me with messages about Rouyn Noranda please.

Well, one could say the same of Highway 401.

Even if the rails were there, the cost of keeping enough crews qualified to run the territory would be huge. When there is a blockage of one railway, the other railway may accept a small number of detours, but only a few....because they don’t have enough people to handle the peak. We saw this recently when CN’s Sarnia Tunnel was blocked... sure, there was an alternate tunnel in Windsor, but not enough people or track time on other lines. The detours thru Noranda-Rouyn were similarly limited.

The fixed costs of keeping a redundant route for occasional use as a detour are just too high to make that strategy viable.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

A second route for redundency could be argued from national strategic and/or economic angles, but they would be up to the state to fund, not the companies. Similarly, I would hope CN has adequate disaster recovery built into their new single national RTC in Edmonton.
I remember one of Tom Clancy's earlier books, Red Storm Rising, about the cold war heating up in Europe (of course, the west won), and one factor limiting the USSR's ability to move materiel to the front came down to a single railway switch. My favourite Clancy book from back in the early days where he actually did his own writing.

 

[tiffer24]

Supporters of Wet'suwet'en have blocked trains leaving in and out of Macmillan Yard in Vaughan, Ontario in solidarity with Wet'suwet’en land defenders.

All trains going west to Hamilton, London, New York and Michigan are now blocked as of 10 a.m. on Saturday.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...campaign_id=GTA&utm_content=wetsuwetentoronto

 

[dowlingm]

@Urban Sky one hopes that there are many happy faces among your colleagues at TMC and MMC at this unexpected opportunity to reduce their maintenance backlogs

 

[Urban Sky]

@Urban Sky one hopes that there are many happy faces among your colleagues at TMC and MMC at this unexpected opportunity to reduce their maintenance backlogs

I’m sure there is (though a railroad without any operations ceases to be a railroad), but there are also quite a few cars which need to get to MMC and back to Vancouver before the start of the peak season and which are stuck at TMC, WMC or VMC at the moment...

 

[robmausser]

A second route for redundency could be argued from national strategic and/or economic angles, but they would be up to the state to fund, not the companies. Similarly, I would hope CN has adequate disaster recovery built into their new single national RTC in Edmonton.
I remember one of Tom Clancy's earlier books, Red Storm Rising, about the cold war heating up in Europe (of course, the west won), and one factor limiting the USSR's ability to move materiel to the front came down to a single railway switch. My favourite Clancy book from back in the early days where he actually did his own writing.

This is the advantage of the HFR route. It adds redundancy.

I've always wondered why VIA didnt build some connecting tracks between the CN and CP lines where they basically meet, and could add redundancy to their network.

It would require some agreements with CP, but perhaps only on the basis of using their line in emergencies or cases with a derailment/track breakage on CN's line.

A pie-in-the-sky version would have VIA using the CP lines to pass slow freight trains on sections of the CN line, but this would probably require intense monitoring and planning of the network. If me trying to switch lanes in rush hour highway traffic is any indication, attempting to use the CP line to bypass a CN train could ultimately just end the VIA train waiting behind an even slower CP train.

 

[dowlingm]

This is the advantage of the HFR route. It adds redundancy.

I've always wondered why VIA didnt build some connecting tracks between the CN and CP lines where they basically meet, and could add redundancy to their network.

while such arrangements might be possible at times, subject to capacity, in this case where tracks are blocked because of a protest, and you help the blocked party route around it, that might get your tracks blocked even more severely than they were at Dupont.

There are a couple of places on the province’s network where CN and CP cross but do not connect; it would be good to see Ontario step in and offer to fund construction and maintenance of interconnections to ensure that where issues could be routed around that they can be. (Edit: that was one of the reasons I had time for the CN-CP Bowmanville option)

 

[lenaitch]

I'll let the railway guys comment on the challenges of moving traffic between networks. The CP in this area is single track so I don't know how much capacity there would be. I would think there would be a continuing cost to VIA for having this option available just in case. Besides, as mentioned, if the protestors felt their efforts were being end-run, all they would have to do is drive 20km north to CP (or about 1km to the 401 if they wanted to go that route).

Edit - HFR might add passenger redundancy assuming lakeshore passenger service remains. I highly doubt freight would be allowed on the Havelock HFR route for many reasons.

 

[crs1026]

CP/CN had a junction at Melrose (just west of London) which they used into the last decade for diversions. Eventually they pulled it up for lack of use. Since about 2000, there were a half dozen times when CP ran on CN through Union Station towards Montreal when their line was blocked. And CP gave up the trackage rights which used to allow them to run Toronto to Hamilton which led to the sale of the Canpa Sub to Metrolinx. The last time that I can recall CN diverting on CP east of London was about 2001. There used to be connecting tracks in Weston (before GTS) and Brighton.

There have been detour trains fairly regularly from the junction in Parry Sound to Winnipeg when one of the two lines has been blocked. That practice continues.

As I commented earlier, the issue is finding crews who know the territory. To be qualified to run on another railway, each worker would have to work a familiarization trip a couple of times a year. That's a lot of trips by a lot of people to have enough qualified people at the drop of a hat.

So, what happens is, the second railway will agree to run 2-3 detour trains a day, until their supply of rested crews runs out. The railways are notorious for being chronically understaffed to begin with. So even if the physical connection remained, the problem is people supply.

- Paul

PS: Lots of detours happen as required - via Buffalo and Chicago.

 

[Urban Sky]

I'll let the railway guys comment on the challenges of moving traffic between networks. The CP in this area is single track so I don't know how much capacity there would be. I would think there would be a continuing cost to VIA for having this option available just in case. Besides, as mentioned, if the protestors felt their efforts were being end-run, all they would have to do is drive 20km north to CP (or about 1km to the 401 if they wanted to go that route).

Edit - HFR might add passenger redundancy assuming lakeshore passenger service remains. I highly doubt freight would be allowed on the Havelock HFR route for many reasons.

If I may volunteer an answer for the “railway guy” question: you can’t route passenger trains over two parallel lines (even if both lines served the same stations) unless they are jointly dispatched, as otherwise CN could just send whichever VIA trains they find to be inconvenient over to CP (or vice versa) without any consideration of whether they would cause even more disruption there. Dispatching is never a question of “do you want to deal with this train?” but “Where is the best path to send this train?” and this requires interlined dispatching, especially if one of the two lines is only single-tracked and therefore has an elevated risk of clogging up...

By the way, I don't know why there would be any reason not to assume that passenger service would remain on the Lakeshore route with HFR:

VIA Rail’s existing route over CN’s freight main line from Montreal to Toronto would surrender its intercity express status in favor of local trains scheduled to the needs of smaller communities, with Kingston, Ontario, as their hub.

“High Frequency Rail is part of VIA Rail Canada’s transformation toward a more modern passenger service for a more connected, more sustainable and more mobile Canada,” said VIA Rail’s recently appointed CEO, Cynthia Garneau. “We look forward to working with the Canada Infrastructure Bank in this critical step for improving passenger rail to the benefit of Canadians.”

Red-over-green for VIA Rail’s high-frequency corridor - Railway Age

After five years of internal planning, VIA Rail’s vision of a dedicated, high-frequency passenger railway from Quebec City to Toronto has secured the backing of the new Canada Infrastructure Bank. A C$55 million investment by the bank was announced June 25 for final pre-procurement planning...

www.railwayage.com

 

[lenaitch]

There have been detour trains fairly regularly from the junction in Parry Sound to Winnipeg when one of the two lines has been blocked. That practice continues.

I assume you mean in addition to the directional running agreement between Parry Sound and Sudbury.

The issue of emergent detours begs a question, if you don't mind. A few years back when CN had the lengthy derailment closure at Gogama, if I recall correctly, VIA cancelled the Canadian for the duration rather than divert onto CP, say via the CN Soo sub from Oba to Franz. Other than obviously missing some minor stations, would there be other reasons, such as lack of a formal agreement, equipment, etc. or a bunch of smaller disruptions that add up to more trouble than it's worth. Tnx

 

[crs1026]

I assume you mean in addition to the directional running agreement between Parry Sound and Sudbury.

The issue of emergent detours begs a question, if you don't mind. A few years back when CN had the lengthy derailment closure at Gogama, if I recall correctly, VIA cancelled the Canadian for the duration rather than divert onto CP, say via the CN Soo sub from Oba to Franz. Other than obviously missing some minor stations, would there be other reasons, such as lack of a formal agreement, equipment, etc. or a bunch of smaller disruptions that add up to more trouble than it's worth. Tnx

Actually, I meant that thanks to the junction, both CN and CP have on occasion accepted the others’ trains for the whole trip across the north. The trains are run as “extras” and crewed by the railway accepting the train. The blocked railway’s crews just stay home with no work to do as they are not qualified for the other line. Even if they were allowed to run, it would mean taxi’ing them huge distances at the ends of their runs. As I noted, the hosting railway would use up the slack in their crew pools very quickly, so they limit the throughput to a train or two a day.

I do seem to recall the Canadian detouring on CP up north, but very rarely .... say once in the last four-five years. It has come down the Mactier Sub from Parry Sound once or twice also. There is not only the crewing issue but the logistics of any servicing stops en route - I don’t know where the cars are watered, but I’m pretty sure they don’t run all the way Winnipeg-Toronto without some attention. So you have CP not necessarily wanting to handle the train and VIA not necessarily feeling able to let it wander.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

One last comment - coproduction seems to be happening up north Parry Sound to Sudbury, and in the west Kamloops - Mission, but that doesn’t mean anyone really likes it. Mention the topic to rail RTC’s or middle managers and you get a flood of testosterone. Inevitably one railway’s fastest freight will get stuck behind the other railway’s slowest train, and all they can do is fume, or worse. There are lots of tit-for-tat stories. It’s no different than how VIA is treated. The culture is win-lose not mutual win-win, except for the accountants who see the money saved.

For the life of me, I can’t understand why the freight railways don’t promote coproduction between Toronto and Montreal, as an alternative to HFR being built thru Peterboro. Say VIA will spend $2B- $3B on the Havelock line. Sell one of the two main lines to VIA for $1.9B, share freight use of the other line, and split the $1.9B. Shared use of one line will be cheaper than two separate lines, VIA will get a better quality line at lower cost, and the railways pocket a quick billion each. There is sufficient capacity for fifty years or more, by which time VIA may have a case for HSR and can give the second line back. The problem is moving away from the two competitive cultures. Being master of the house comes at a price, but the railways seem hellbent to pay it.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

A conundrum that is likely never to be resolved is the selective unwillingness by FNs to abide by the court's decisions

The Crown is bound by the same treaties and have been found to be in violation of their own terms all over the map.

This whole fight is ridiculous and should be resolved tomorrow. The Wet'suwet'en are not against pipelines in their unceded territory, they just want a routing change. Trudeau should get it done.

PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

It's simply Trudeau shys away from responsibility

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