VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

What about refusing to give out free food and making people pay for food while stranded on a train?

This obviously had very bad optics, but I’m not that sure that faced with dramatically insufficient supplies (which were supposed to last maybe 5-6 hours where most passengers rely on there own supplies, but now have to last a multiple of that while passengers have exhausted there own supplies), handing out the supplies on a first-come-first-serve basis for free is really in the interest of the passengers, especially of those which the cart reaches last. Asking for money usually results in more efficient outcomes than just handing stuff out to whoever asks first. That passengers should be refunded for any such purchases is a different question…

Nobody bothered to order pizza or at least notify the emergency services just to have them on standby.

I’m not too sure how you order pizza to a train which is stranded away from a station: do you provide GPS coordinates (milepost references will be unknown to whoever takes your order)? And then you have again the issue of how to distribute the Pizza: “take one slice and pass the rest on” might work at a big family table, but on a train with 100+ passengers. Not to mention how many pizzas you’d need to order to feed 100+ passengers and the difficulty of accommodating any dietry restrictions.

There probably are workarounds to deal with all these questions, but it is extremely difficult to come up with them on the spot and especially so if under pressure. I don’t envy any employee or crew member who was on duty during these events or involved in drafting annd signing off the policies and guidelines which turned out to be so insufficient, but calling for someone’s dismissal just because you don’t seem capable of at least considering that the system might have been simply set up to fail under this extreme set of circumstances, feels like scapegoting to me.

 

[cplchanb]

This obviously had very bad optics, but I’m not that sure that faced with dramatically insufficient supplies (which were supposed to last maybe 5-6 hours where most passengers rely on there own supplies, but now have to last a multiple of that while passengers have exhausted there own supplies), handing out the supplies on a first-come-first-serve basis for free is really in the interest of the passengers, especially of those which the cart reaches last. Asking for money usually results in more efficient outcomes than just handing stuff out to whoever asks first. That passengers should be refunded for any such purchases is a different question…


I’m not too sure how you order pizza to a train which is stranded away from a station: do you provide GPS coordinates (milepost references will be unknown to whoever takes your order)? And then you have again the issue of how to distribute the Pizza: “take one slice and pass the rest on” might work at a big family table, but on a train with 100+ passengers. Not to mention how many pizzas you’d need to order to feed 100+ passengers and the difficulty of accommodating any dietry restrictions.

There probably are workarounds to deal with all these questions, but it is extremely difficult to come up with them on the spot and especially so if under pressure. I don’t envy any employee or crew member who was on duty during these events or involved in drafting annd signing off the policies and guidelines which turned out to be so insufficient, but calling for someone’s dismissal just because you don’t seem capable of at least considering that the system might have been simply set up to fail under this extreme set of circumstances, feels like scapegoting to me.

Now that you mentioned it I was riding on the ocean back in 2019 and arrival was delayed by 5 hours so they did end up buying everyone a st Hubert chicken meal. We weren't even stranded. I guess it really is dependant on the staff on board

 

[Bordercollie]

Now that you mentioned it I was riding on the ocean back in 2019 and arrival was delayed by 5 hours so they did end up buying everyone a st Hubert chicken meal. We weren't even stranded. I guess it really is dependant on the staff on board

But you weren't stuck during a once in a decade ice storm right? Because that's the excuse used again and again.

The train was about 100m from a residential area. It might take some explanation but it's not a farmer's field. Order enough food for everyone, problem solved and if it doesn't seem like anyone is coming to cut down the tree within the first 4 hours someone should have already be working on what to do next.

In theory if you were to be able to park a train on the adjacent track could you use a plank or some pre approved emergency plan to move passengers to the other train? Able bodied people could walk off one train and board another but you would need some plan for handicapped passengers.

Or get them on a bus at least to the closed train station. I'm sure if someone picked up the phone within the 28? Hours those people were stuck on the train you can get two school buses to do trips to the station. It might take 4 trips but that's better than being stuck on the train for that time.

Maybe my suggestions are not practical but the fact that they did nothing, had no plan and basically said too bad and barely apologized is pathetic. Plus people only got 50% off their next trip at first? Like after that experience they would ever take the train again.

 

[lenaitch]

The debate on state vs. personal responsibility in a crisis never gets resolved. The fact that the state and its agencies have various emergency response services doesn't give license to individuals and carriers (I'm including VIA here rather than an agency of the state since they are providing a service) from sitting back and waiting for the state to arrive on its white horse; they retain a fair degree of responsibility. Where those lines are drawn will vary with each situation, hence the need for emergency planning. No plan can be completely granular and perfect for every situation, but it can at least narrow the gaps and identify potential trouble spots. For example, it can't simply rely on ordering local food without considering a whole host of factors, including whether delivery persons will shlepp across a snow-covered field (are they dressed for it? Will insurance allow for it? Etc.). If the answer is a member of the crew go to the road to get it, no doubt a discussion with the union might be in order, as well as clothing, workplace insurance, etc. You can what-if yourself to death, but at least a plan developed in the calm, with fairly clear authorities and responsibilities will address most situations fairly adequately. There's a fairly wide chasm between 'danger' and 'comfort'.

 

[cplchanb]

The debate on state vs. personal responsibility in a crisis never gets resolved. The fact that the state and its agencies have various emergency response services doesn't give license to individuals and carriers (I'm including VIA here rather than an agency of the state since they are providing a service) from sitting back and waiting for the state to arrive on its white horse; they retain a fair degree of responsibility. Where those lines are drawn will vary with each situation, hence the need for emergency planning. No plan can be completely granular and perfect for every situation, but it can at least narrow the gaps and identify potential trouble spots. For example, it can't simply rely on ordering local food without considering a whole host of factors, including whether delivery persons will shlepp across a snow-covered field (are they dressed for it? Will insurance allow for it? Etc.). If the answer is a member of the crew go to the road to get it, no doubt a discussion with the union might be in order, as well as clothing, workplace insurance, etc. You can what-if yourself to death, but at least a plan developed in the calm, with fairly clear authorities and responsibilities will address most situations fairly adequately. There's a fairly wide chasm between 'danger' and 'comfort'.

That's true..but then again for meals doesn't via package enough food for at least 1 per person even if they don't pay? Or are they riding metrics and intentionally understocking?

 

[crs1026]

One interesting overnight train purchase just announced - the renderings of the accommodation designs are the interesting bits.

Norske Tog Ordered FLIRTNEX

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

That's true..but then again for meals doesn't via package enough food for at least 1 per person even if they don't pay? Or are they riding metrics and intentionally understocking?

I don't know but certainly doubt it. There are issues of cost, space, expiry, etc. If they were wanting to or compelled to have sufficient food for x pax for y duration, they'd be better off something like trail mix, energy bars or military-style IMPs (individual meal packs). Is the goal to keep them alive, happy or occupied?

 

[Urban Sky]

Now that you mentioned it I was riding on the ocean back in 2019 and arrival was delayed by 5 hours so they did end up buying everyone a st Hubert chicken meal. We weren't even stranded. I guess it really is dependant on the staff on board

Train 15 (i.e. the westbound Ocean) is scheduled to arrive in Saint-Foy around 6am and Montreal around 10am. The risk of significant delays on that route is well known and it is not that difficult to research in advance restaurants which are large and flexible enough to supply hundreds of meals at a time which is guaranteed to fall within the restaurant’s opening hours (i.e. for either lunch or dinner time) and to a predefined VIA station at short notice, ensuring that there is a clear process which ensures that the restaurant doesn’t get completely overwhelmed or wrongly believes that your order for 280 chicken meals in 2 hours time must be a prank call.

This is the less-than-subtle difference between contingency planning (for events which occur maybe once per month) and emergency response (to events which were unforeseen as they had not happend within organizational memory - at least at that precise location), which for whatever reason @Bordercollie seems unwilling or incapable of acknowledging…

That's true..but then again for meals doesn't via package enough food for at least 1 per person even if they don't pay? Or are they riding metrics and intentionally understocking?

Most passengers plan their own supplies to last for the entire scheduled trip length. Therefore, the demand faced by VIA for food and beverages on a four hour trip which turns into an eight hour trip is much, much more than twice as much. The amount of food waste associated with stocking up for double or triple trip lengths would be eyewatering…

 

[Bordercollie]

Train 15 (i.e. the westbound Ocean) is scheduled to arrive in Saint-Foy around 6am and Montreal around 10am. The risk of significant delays on that route is well known and it is not that difficult to research in advance restaurants which are large and flexible enough to supply hundreds of meals at a time which is guaranteed to fall within the restaurant’s opening hours (i.e. for either lunch or dinner time) and to a predefined VIA station at short notice, ensuring that there is a clear process which ensures that the restaurant doesn’t get completely overwhelmed or wrongly believes that your order for 280 chicken meals in 2 hours time must be a prank call.

This is the less-than-subtle difference between contingency planning (for events which occur maybe once per month) and emergency response (to events which were unforeseen as they had not happend within organizational memory - at least at that precise location), which for whatever reason @Bordercollie seems unwilling or incapable of acknowledging…


Most passengers plan their own supplies to last for the entire scheduled trip length. Therefore, the demand faced by VIA for food and beverages on a four hour trip which turns into an eight hour trip is much, much more than twice as much. The amount of food waste associated with stocking up for double or triple trip lengths would be eyewatering…

I don't expect that they have double the provisions "just incase". I just hope that if I'm stranded on a train for an extended period of time that someone somewhere is working towards a resolution within a reasonable amount of time. Not pass the buck to the next shift because they are not capable or willing to try to resolve the situation.

"It's okay it's not like they are freezing to death on the train so let's sit and see what happens, I'm sure eventually they will remove the tree and the train will be on its way" kind of attitude.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't expect that they have double the provisions "just incase". I just hope that if I'm stranded on a train for an extended period of time that someone somewhere is working towards a resolution within a reasonable amount of time. Not pass the buck to the next shift because they are not capable or willing to try to resolve the situation.

"It's okay it's not like they are freezing to death on the train so let's sit and see what happens, I'm sure eventually they will remove the tree and the train will be on its way" kind of attitude.

Okay, I think we all get it by now: the only possible explanation why passengers were stranded for such inacceptably long periods is that nobody was capable or willing to do anything about the situation, just like lack of competence or motivation are the only valid explanations whenever you fail to produce desired results in your own day job…

Nevermind that nobody of us knows what was actually attempted to help the passengers on the stranded trains and that whatever processes work perfectly when dealing with one immobilized train might still fail horribly when you deal with a dozen or so of these events simultaneously.

I understand that not everyone can be as lucky as me to have seen VIA’s operations control center from the inside and watched their employees work at their respective work stations on their very distinct tasks, but if you want to contribute something constructive to this discussion, why don’t you go to your local Pizzeria and ask them what lead time they require to bake enough pizzas for 150+ people and how eager they are to trespass over railway property and live tracks to deliver said mountain of pizzas…?

 

[KevinT]

I’m not too sure how you order pizza to a train which is stranded away from a station: do you provide GPS coordinates (milepost references will be unknown to whoever takes your order)?

Off topic but worth socializing: What3Words

For example, here's the exact location of the fallen tree I dragged off a single track forest trail last month with a come-along, without quoting GPS coordinates to five decimal places: Obey Proceeds Suitcase

https://what3words.com/obey.proceeds.suitcase

 

[smallspy]

Now that you mentioned it I was riding on the ocean back in 2019 and arrival was delayed by 5 hours so they did end up buying everyone a st Hubert chicken meal. We weren't even stranded. I guess it really is dependant on the staff on board

That decision is not made by the onboard staff, but the supervisors back at the control centre in Montreal. They would have monitored the delay, received reports from the crew about the food levels onboard the train, and then ordered and coordinated the food delivery to a convenient location to meet the train.

All of that would have then been relayed to the onboard crew, who would have then informed the passengers.

Dan

 

[drum118]

Transport Canada issues RFQ for high-frequency rail project​

 

[Bordercollie]

Transport Canada issues RFQ for high-frequency rail project​

The government needs to stay in power until the RFP is awarded.

 

[rbt]

The government needs to stay in power until the RFP is awarded.

Even if the RFP is awarded, the EA will not be complete and that will require approval by the government at that time.

Ford won Ontario by pushing big-ticket transit projects. A federal conservative party looking for a majority will need seats in urban Ontario and Quebec. If the winning bidder promises to kick enough money up to VIA to fully fund their other routes without government subsidy, Conservatives will likely be in favour of continuing the project.