VIA Rail

[mdrejhon]

FRA rated?

So, the Talgo 250 Hybrid trains might be a good VIA Rail candidate. Up to 180kph diesel, 250kph electric, push-pull, FRA rated. And tiltable, so can keep more speed around many curves. It meets (and exceeds) all the VIA requirements!

That'd be a candidate for meeting both VIA HFR needs *and* meeting political goals of needing the "HSR" label for voters... If that were a condition for funding VIA HFR. And allowing a more incremental electrification and grade separation buildout.

Well, in theory, anyway.

(Hmmm: Talgo should respond on MERX... Urban Sky, might want to send a memo to YDS to invite Renfe/Talgo to make a response via MERX as one of the many potential bids.)

 

[steveintoronto]

And Bombardier was involved too..." Manufacturer, Talgo / Bombardier (Kassel) "

BOMBARDIER MITRAC Hybrid technology enables vehicles to operate efficiently on both electrified and non-electrified tracks by employing a common propulsion chain utilizing electric and diesel power sources. The technology enables rail vehicles to operate economically, efficiently and ecologically on tracks which are only partly electrified, limiting diesel power to the minimum.

Benefits include:

• Up to 80 % reduction in air pollution
  Diesel engines run only when necessary, with CO2, NOx and particle emissions reduced accordingly.
• Up to 40 % lower fuel consumption
  Locomotives with multiple diesel engines can be powered separately to reduce consumption. When used in combination with shorter diesel routes, fuel costs are minimized.
• Up to 40 % lower noise emissions
  MITRAC Hybrid technology features reduced noise both in train stations and along tracks.
• Up to 20 % reduction in travel timeDiesel-to-electric switch-overs mean same-seat rides, with no time lost transferring passengers or waiting for locomotive exchanges. Electric mode is more powerful than diesel, allowing shorter travel times and enhanced track capacity in mixed traffic between electric and hybrid fleets.

Proven solution in use
The Autorail à Grande Capacité (AGC) is a family of multiple units manufactured for the French regions that includes electric, diesel electric and dual power versions – a single, versatile vehicle type with different propulsion systems.

New Jersey Transit in the USA and Agence métropolitaine de transport (AMT) in Montréal, Canada, have ordered ALP-45DP dual power locomotives.

Datasheet

In the event, I think the safest, most reliable, proven and *most affordable* will be to use standard locos (electric one end, diesel the other) with a software tweak to co-ordinate the power distribution (all proven and existing in other contexts) with an almost standard coach set with the standard AAR triple phase power bus the length of the coach-set. There will be *some* power losses over the length of the trainset to the corresponding 'slug' the other end, that can be neutralized/optimized/balanced with the software controller and sensors. Perhaps the only difference from standard for the coach-set beside the traction power bus might be couplers, especially if the bogies are shared with connecting coaches as is standard for high-speed trains. The question would remain on when the electric loco would/should be coupled on. If it is, it might as well 'pull its own weight' with that loco's bogies in shared traction. With processor control, the 'slug mode' loco could also be an active dynamic brake in concert with the powered loco.

Edit to Add: Here's the news coverage on the 250 Hybrid and the accident. "Break" is confused throughout with "Brake", merely a glitch in translation, but any fault ascribed to the the weight of the two diesel units I haven't found so far digging, and they actually weigh considerably less than bi-modal locos.

SANTIAGO DE COMPOSTELA - The train crash that killed at least 78 people in Spain on Wednesday took place on a newly built track but one without an automatic breaking system.

This is normally in place in the event a train is going at an excessive speed, which the experienced driver of the fated train is suspected of doing.


New Track

Opened in December 2011, the high-speed line from Ourense to La Coruna through Santiago is one of the newest in Spain, a country that is regularly hailed as the European leader when it comes to high-speed railways.

Spain has the second largest high-speed rail network in the world, behind only China, with 3,100 kilometres (1,900 miles) and some 3,000 kilometres more currently being planned or constructed.

Difference between Automatic Breaking Systems for high-speed and conventional trains

Four kilometres before arriving in Santiago the track is not designed for high-speed trains and the speed limit is 80 kph, according to the union of train drivers Semaf.

This is where the accident took place.

The security system changes at that point from the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS), which is used for high speed trains to the Spanish system known as the Signals and Automatic Breaking Warning (ASFA), which is used for conventional trains.

It was the ASFA system that was in place at the time of the crash.

The main difference between the two systems is that the ERTMS system automatically breaks trains that are going above the permitted speed limit, whilst the ASFA only does so if the train is travelling above 200 kph.

According to the transcription of a radio message sent by the driver of the train just before the crash, published in the media, he admitted that he was going at 190 kph.

Hybrid train between a high-speed and the conventional model

The train model is the Talgo 250 dual, a train that was first introduced to service in June 2012 on the line between Madrid and Galicia.

According to train maker Talgo, "it is unique model of train in the market, it is more versatile" and its "principal advantage is the possibility to go at a high speed without the need for numerous investments in improving the infrastructure as it can adapt to the line that is in place."

Equipped with both a diesel and electric engine, it can travel at up to 250 kilometres per hour on the high-speed lines.

"This particular characteristic makes it a very attractive product for countries that want to introduce high-speed lines in the coming years," Talgo said on its website.

Spain internationally promotes its high-speed lines and has already obtained various contracts for projects abroad.

The Talgo 250 Dual model, which can hold between 265 and 289 passengers, is also equipped with a pendular system that Talgo says "reduces the effect of the lateral movement that the passengers feel" when moving around bends.

Due to this system, the higher the speed, the more the carriages "move towards the centre of the bend" which allows "a speed increase of up to 25% when taking bends, although only when the characteristics of the track permit it" and "without endangering the train's security."

Wendesday's accident took place on a bend in the track at quite an acute angle. [...]

https://www.enca.com/world/abs-absent-fatal-rail-crash-track

weight comparison:
One Talgo diesel tender: 6600 kg X 2= 13,200 kg
An MP-40 = : 129273.825 kg+

The difference is astounding, I've checked it three times, but ask others to double check. It's not a linear comparison, as the tender is purely prime muscle, no traction motors, but as per mass in motion per accident risk...you be the judge.

 

[dowlingm]

According to this, Deux Montagnes is to be re-electrified to 1.5kV DC as part of the REM. While Euro locomotives have been known to support 1.5kV so I guess it's not strictly impossible to the ALPs to support it, it does seem to throw another complication into any notion of running VIA through Mont Royal.

 

[steveintoronto]

According to this, Deux Montagnes is to be re-electrified to 1.5kV DC as part of the REM. While Euro locomotives have been known to support 1.5kV so I guess it's not strictly impossible to the ALPs to support it, it does seem to throw another complication into any notion of running VIA through Mont Royal.

Yes, the ERM was discussed extensively at this site some weeks back, and it's a brilliant template in terms of fiscal model for VIA to emulate. The "Montreal Tunnel" as many call it will have a new purpose, and it doesn't include heavy rail vehicles, but that tunnel is not what VIA is aiming at. Their sight is much higher and more extensive. And that includes dedicated track still, more than ever. And electrified. And thus the need for TC to adapt the very FRA regs the US herself is changing. They're obsolete.

Btw:
The REM Proposal is the Best Transit Project Montreal has seen in 30 Years
April 28th, 2016 by ant6n
http://www.cat-bus.com/2016/04/the-...ransit-project-montreal-has-seen-in-30-years/

A clarification to my claim that the the Talgo 250 Hybrid is FRA compliant. A *variant* is:

Talgo XXI
Talgo XXI is a project for a high speed diesel-powered train, that operates in push-pull with one or two power cars and Talgo VII intermediate cars. The North American version has four-axle power cars in compliance with United States FRA regulations. Only one train in compliance with European UIC standards has been built to date. Talgo reported that the Talgo XXI attained 256 km/h on the Olmedo-Medina del Campo high speed experimental line on 9 July 2002, which led to a claim for the world speed record for a diesel train. However, this claim was never proven. After the test runs the train was sold to the Spanish infrastructure authority ADIF as a measuring train for high speed lines.[...]

http://www.talgo.com/index.php/es/ampliar.php?id=314&sec=talgo

These have proven very successful:

Talgo 8
The Series 8 passenger cars are similar to the Series VII cars, but are designed for the North American market. Talgo made an agreement in 2009 to build a manufacturing facility in Wisconsin which would initially supply two 14-car trainsets for the AmtrakHiawatha Service. The company expressed hope the plant would later be used to build trains for other U.S. rail projects.

Early in 2010, the Oregon Department of Transportation announced that it had negotiated the purchase of two 13-car trainsets for use in the Pacific Northwest rail corridor between Eugene and Vancouver, British Columbia. These trainsets were also manufactured in Wisconsin, and were delivered in 2013. The sets are currently operating in the “Cascades” corridor in the Pacific Northwest. They have been integrated with the five existing sets in regular service. The Series 8 trains offer passengers many modern amenities including high speed Wi-Fi, reclining seats and a full service bistro and lounge car.

http://www.talgo.com/index.php/es/ampliar.php?id=314&sec=talgo

[...] Under federal funding guidelines, Washington was already required to add two additional roundtrips between Portland and Seattle by 2017.

Because the Washington Department of Transportation owns three of the five existing Cascades trains and Amtrak owns the other two, that mandated expansion could have eliminated much of the service between Portland and Eugene -- at a time when it's growing.

By owning trains, ODOT says, Oregon will also have a stronger role in future expansion of the Cascades corridor.

With the Talgo 8 trains – the Mt. Jefferson and Mt. Bachelor -- ODOT is at least moving toward adding a morning southbound train out of Portland that would return from Eugene in the early evening. It would be the third daily roundtrip offered to riders.

Oregon wants to eventually offer six round trips per day and boost on-time performance to 95 percent with trains going up to 110 mph.[...]

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2013/10/oregons_new_talgo_8_trains_for.html

4 page pdf: http://www.oregon.gov/odot/comm/docs/series_8_brochure.pdf

Although only diesel, maximum speed is 125 mph.

All sorts of video up on Youtube, but this makes a particular point: Top and tail P32s running into Vancouver with a Talgo coachset. Often the consists are with a Talgo loco one end, P32 the other. Talgos are already working in Canada!

Trains Magazine:

Wednesday, May 05, 2010

Is this a glimpse of what’s ahead for Wisconsin and other states?

Precisely at 7:40 a.m., on Monday, Amtrak Cascades train No. 510 gently eased out of Seattle’s King Street Station, heading north to Vancouver, B.C. This was my first experience with these articulated, lightweight trains that run between Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and Eugene, Ore. These Spanish-built trains have been in service in the Pacific Northwest for 10 years now, and they’re nothing short of amazing. That they’re in North America, where Federal Railroad Administration rules make so many cool foreign trains unwelcome due to super stringent crashworthiness standards, is truly a miracle. [...]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/ar...he-talgo-to-vancouver-for-the-first-time.aspx

 

[dowlingm]

A clarification to my claim that the the Talgo 250 Hybrid is FRA compliant. A *variant* is:

http://www.talgo.com/index.php/es/ampliar.php?id=314&sec=talgo

These have proven very successful:

http://www.talgo.com/index.php/es/ampliar.php?id=314&sec=talgo

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2013/10/oregons_new_talgo_8_trains_for.html

4 page pdf: http://www.oregon.gov/odot/comm/docs/series_8_brochure.pdf

Although only diesel, maximum speed is 125 mph.

All sorts of video up on Youtube, but this makes a particular point: Top and tail P32s running into Vancouver with a Talgo coachset. Often the consists are with a Talgo loco one end, P32 the other. Talgos are already working in Canada!

Trains Magazine:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/ar...he-talgo-to-vancouver-for-the-first-time.aspx

These would be the Talgos which have a technician travelling on every consist, and which the Wisconsin consists have been lying in Beech Grove with no sign of going anywhere after a brief period where it looked like they would join Amtrak Michigan?

A discussion of whether FRA/TC regs are fit for purpose is a matter for another thread. Irrespective, VIA have not sought interest from vendors on the basis of future regulations, but on the basis of present ones.

 

[steveintoronto]

Here's Dowling's reference for a "technician travelling on every consist":

Here is another observation that I left out of my initial post. All the Cascades trains have a Talgo technician on-board. They are paid by Talgo, as I was told by the technician on the northbound train, and their job is to make sure that all of the equipment is performing correctly.

Having a technician on-board for every trip strikes me as a bit unusual. It doesn't appear to say much for the dependability of the equipment.

Is anyone aware of a similar practice in anywhere else?

Here's an answer from the same posting string:

The onboard Talgo tech person is a Talgo Company thing. It is part of their corporate strategy to make their completely unique design a success in the marketplace. With sufficiently exotic railroad equipment, what they are doing may be a necessity.

Do you suppose that EMD reps accompanying the first-generation Diesels out on the road is an analogy? I remember reading essays in Trains about the life and times of such factory reps. Dieselization has been a roaring success in hindsight, but the first-gen Diesels had their own share of teething problems, some intrinsic to the technology, some the result of the railroads learning the ropes in how to operate and maintain them effectively.

You probably know the story of the Krauss-Maffei Diesel hydraulics in the U.S.. Talgo is not taking any chances that in the future some smart-mouthed train book author will brand the Talgo Train "a failure."

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/p/211856/2328977.aspx

Anything more substantial than that to add Mr Dowling? You appear beyond desperate...

A discussion of whether FRA/TC regs are fit for purpose is a matter for another thread. Irrespective, VIA have not sought interest from vendors on the basis of future regulations, but on the basis of present ones.

It's also fit for this, not the least because one would surmise someone like yourself would realize that since Washington and Oregon state, and Amtrak are using them, and into Vancouver, that they *ARE* compliant with regs...or are you insinuating that Amtrak is breaking the law? Please...feel free to clarify your point.

Not only are they running them on the Cascade run into Vancouver, but doing so with both the Talgo loco as part of the trainset both ends, sometimes mixed Talgo loco and P32, and sometimes top and tail with P32s. You completely debase your own point, whichever way it was switched.

and which the Wisconsin consists have been lying in Beech Grove with no sign of going anywhere after a brief period where it looked like they would join Amtrak Michigan?

Sir, your claims are breathtaking, just not in the way you intend. You seem to be very uninformed on matters you claim to know so much about:

Talgo to keep trains, get $10 million more in settlement

Madison — Wisconsin taxpayers will end up paying $9.7 million more for two state of the art train sets — for a total of roughly $50 million — but leave the trains with their Spanish manufacturer, under the settlement of a nearly 3-year-old lawsuit.

The settlement, which still needs to be approved in court, ends a political saga going back half a decade.

The bizarre and expensive outcome for Wisconsin — paying for a product but not keeping it or ever using it — reflects the depth of the political disagreement in which Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle signed, and then GOP presidential candidate and Gov. Scott Walker nixed, a no-bid contract with Talgo Inc. for trains from Madison to Milwaukee and then on to Chicago

The manufacturer ended up suing Walker and Transportation Secretary Mark Gottlieb seeking a clean title to the trains — and also sought an additional $10 million as a final payment on them — and has reached a settlement that largely achieves that, said Lester Pines, an attorney for Talgo. If the manufacturer is able to sell the trains, it will return 30% of the net proceeds of the sale, up to a limit of $9.7 million, to Wisconsin.

Spokespersons for the Walker administration and the state Department of Justice did not respond to requests for comment late Wednesday. But Pines confirmed details of the settlement and provided a copy of a stipulation in the case that was signed Wednesday by both sides and that will be filed in Dane County Circuit Court on Thursday.

"(Talgo) didn't like this litigation and it's happy it's over," Pines said. "They're not in the business of suing people."

Under Doyle and a Democratically held Legislature, the state agreed in 2009 to a no-bid contract to buy two new train sets from Talgo Inc. for Amtrak's Hiawatha line, which runs from Milwaukee to Chicago, for $47.5 million as well as additional trains for a proposed Madison to Milwaukee line.

Talgo, a Spanish company with U.S. headquarters in Seattle, was paid $42.2 million for the trains before the lawsuit, according to the state Department of Transportation. The state expended millions of dollars more for a temporary maintenance base and planning for a permanent base, spare parts and consulting fees.

The payments were made using bonds, with taxpayers ultimately on the hook for those expenditures.

Wisconsin won an $810 million federal stimulus grant to build a high-speed rail from Milwaukee to Madison, but the federal government revoked the award after Walker won election in 2010 on a promise to stop the train. [...]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wiscon...more-in-settlement-b99560687z1-322348321.html

So in more succinct terms, no, it's absolutely nothing to do with those two trainsets, Mr Dowling.

And further to that: (By the Mayor of Madison)

You thought Wisconsin losing high-speed rail was bad?
It actually just got worse


July 24, 2014
by Dave Cieslewicz

It's hard to get your head around the rapid turn of events that has taken Wisconsin out of the lead for a 21st-century transportation system and plunged us into the Dark Ages.

Let's get caught up. [...]

- See more at: http://isthmus.com/opinion/opinion/...high-speed-rail-was-bad/#sthash.GKBKJykF.dpuf

The Talgo US HQ and manufacturing facility moved to Washington, where the NW has been supportive, and very happy with their performance.

 

[KevinT]

Don't think most EMUs have any capability to transfer power like that.

If you look at the picture on the SEPTA Wikipedia page, each car has it's own panto extended. That to me seems like a horrible recipe for wear-and-tear on the service wire!

If you look at the NS Sprinter or VIRM trains used in The Netherlands however, they're also EMU but with only one or two pantos extended per train. That means there's definitely a way of relaying power from car-to-car, which could make the addition of a diesel power car for panto-less operation possible.

Edit: Not that I'm saying its necessarily a good idea, just a possible one.

 

[dowlingm]

If you look at the picture on the SEPTA Wikipedia page, each car has it's own panto extended. That to me seems like a horrible recipe for wear-and-tear on the service wire!

If you look at the NS Sprinter or VIRM trains used in The Netherlands however, they're also EMU but with only one or two pantos extended per train. That means there's definitely a way of relaying power from car-to-car, which could make the addition of a diesel power car for panto-less operation possible.

Edit: Not that I'm saying its necessarily a good idea, just a possible one.

Think of it like a Flexity. One pantograph but several powered modules in several possible combinations. It can be coupled to another Flexity, but as far as I know only in a basic way which doesn't transfer power. What's being suggested upthread is akin to removing the cab module and putting a diesel unit in front to provide motor power to the consist and not just HEP, as opposed to a designed dual mode unit like Citadis Dualis or SNCF B82500. That is an unknown which VIA clearly don't want - they want something that is in production or at least was recently.

 

[dowlingm]

.

Not actually quoting you, just linking back to your previous post/saga as a courtesy.

The comment about FRA regs was not about the Talgos, but the comment you passed further up-post about Montreal. Due to the order in which I put those paragraphs my intent was not clear, but it's hard to quote out your interminably long posts. This imprecision seems to have caused you to have some sort of meltdown in your desire to defend Talgo from a perceived slur that Series 8s are not FRA compliant. They are. FRA demands on their windshields are part of why their cabs are a bit duck faced.

I don't see what your point was in calling me uninformed re: the Wisconsin Talgos. They are in Beech Grove, that is a fact, a fact confirmed by the final link in your post. They have been there since they left Wisconsin more than two years ago. http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwau...y-left-the-station-b99280599z1-261155611.html

They are a different configuration from Washington/Oregon as they have no business cars for example, being designed for commuter operations. At some point they may move west but they can't be operated on standard Cascades runs, unless they are refitted at substantial costs to match their cousins. There have been no other takers apart from Michigan, whose deal referred to in the link above seems to have fallen through. Given the fairly tight rolling stock market in the US, and the cost of the States of hiring Amtrak national fleet equipment, and the likely delay to the Midwest bilevels, the failure to put them to *any* kind of work seems to indicate that there is a unenthusiastic perception about them in locations which do not already operate them. But time will tell.

 

[steveintoronto]

Not actually quoting you, just linking back to your previous post/saga as a courtesy.

The comment about FRA regs was not about the Talgos, but the comment you passed further up-post about Montreal. Due to the order in which I put those paragraphs my intent was not clear, but it's hard to quote out your interminably long posts. This imprecision seems to have caused you to have some sort of meltdown in your desire to defend Talgo from a perceived slur that Series 8s are not FRA compliant. They are. FRA demands on their windshields are part of why their cabs are a bit duck faced.

I don't see what your point was in calling me uninformed re: the Wisconsin Talgos. They are in Beech Grove, that is a fact, a fact confirmed by the final link in your post. They have been there since they left Wisconsin more than two years ago. http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwau...y-left-the-station-b99280599z1-261155611.html

They are a different configuration from Washington/Oregon as they have no business cars for example, being designed for commuter operations. At some point they may move west but they can't be operated on standard Cascades runs, unless they are refitted at substantial costs to match their cousins. There have been no other takers apart from Michigan, whose deal referred to in the link above seems to have fallen through. Given the fairly tight rolling stock market in the US, and the cost of the States of hiring Amtrak national fleet equipment, and the likely delay to the Midwest bilevels, the failure to put them to *any* kind of work seems to indicate that there is a unenthusiastic perception about them in locations which do not already operate them. But time will tell.

Here's what you wrote:

These would be the Talgos which have a technician travelling on every consist, and which the Wisconsin consists have been lying in Beech Grove with no sign of going anywhere after a brief period where it looked like they would join Amtrak Michigan?

Now you claim they're different from those used on the Cascade run, which is *specifically* what I was illustrating. BTW: The source you quote for 'where they are now' is two years old.

Edit to Add:

In September 2014, the state of Michigan reached an agreement with Talgo, a Spanish railcar manufacturer, to buy two trainsets for the Wolverine, at a cost of $58 million.[13] The trains had been previously built for the state of Wisconsin, before plans for expanded passenger rail service in that state were canceled and the trainsets placed in storage.[13] The new equipment will provide a substantial upgrade in passenger amenities over the Amtrak-owned railcars used on the route.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(train)#cite_note-talgo-13
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(train)

Let's move this up a notch, since you are insistent on saying what can't be used:

What CAN be used? So far, by your strictures as how you interpret VIA's, there's the ALP-45DP. And that's it. The Siemens Charger is going to be used with the Talgo Cascade coach-set. But the Charger is purely diesel. Looks like a stitch-up job for Bombardier, doesn't it? Hey, here's an idea, let's hold an "open competition" that we know only one manufacturer can possibly win....

So why don't you suggest something, and then I can poke holes on anything and everything you suggest?

Clarification: I had mentioned the use of "P32s" on the Talgo coaches, they may be P42s or other Genesis models. The point remains, the Talgos are completely FRA compliant and the end coaches use FRA type knuckle couplers. They are fully compatible with existing locomotives.

• The only one of these that Siemens does not currently offer is dual mode, assuming Brightline rolls out without major issues.

• Bombardier might manage it with an ALP45 variant with a bigger fuel tank and weight savings from not needing a 25Hz transformer core, but don't have a recent unpowered coach order.

• CAF and EMD could go in together but EMD don't have an electric offering, and aside from design licencing CAF haven't built a Viewliner passenger car and have been having enough issues making the ones they are building

• There are other manufacturers who could offer Euro cars but that assumes Transport Canada will change the rules within VIA's time horizon - doesn't seem likely based on the seeming urgency.

So by your own reckoning, Mr Dowling, there are NO contenders. I beg to differ, and illustrate some, but you not only argue with me, you argue with yourself.

I sense another Bombardier delivery boondoggle on the horizon.

It's looking that way, albeit I initially resisted your cynicism.

 

[steveintoronto]

There's a lot more to this story than what is initially apparent, even though it is less than two months old. I'll discuss that further if someone else pounces on it, but the term "stitch-up" that I used last post is fully in play. And this relates *directly* to what appears to be unfolding for VIA. Admiral Beez' reason for cynicism is on full display with this, no matter the machinations that manifest:

A refresher before reading this:

According to this, Deux Montagnes is to be re-electrified to 1.5kV DC as part of the REM. While Euro locomotives have been known to support 1.5kV so I guess it's not strictly impossible to the ALPs to support it, it does seem to throw another complication into any notion of running VIA through Mont Royal.

Mr Dowling failed to grasp the nuances of how this all inter-relates, and who owns a good chunk of Bombardier:

AMT quietly cancels $103-million bid from Bombardier for double-decker train cars
Jason Magder, Montreal Gazette
Published on: May 17, 2016 | Last Updated: May 17, 2016 5:53 PM EDT

The Agence métropolitaine de transport says it’s baffled as to why the company that normally makes its trains can’t outfit them with all their normal features.

The AMT cancelled a $103-million call for tenders for 24 double-decker train cars, for which Bombardier Transportation was the only bidder. The cancellation could mean delays getting much-anticipated double-decker trains on the overcrowded Deux-Montagnes line.

“The bid was considered not to have conformed to the call for tenders,” AMT spokesperson Fanie St-Pierre said. “So we cancelled the tender process. We’ll see now if what we have asked can be provided by other companies aside from Bombardier.”

St-Pierre admitted it’s somewhat strange that Bombardier said in its bid it cannot furnish several items that are standard on AMT trains: screens announcing the next stop, an intercom and a passenger-detection system. She pointed out that Bombardier has built all the agency’s cars, and most of its locomotives to date, and never had a problem providing those features up to now.

Bombardier also said it is not able to build the trains within the 24-month period stipulated in the contract, saying it needs 36 months to build the cars, according to St-Pierre.

“We’re trying to understand why Bombardier submitted this offer like this,” St-Pierre said.

A spokesperson for Bombardier did not return calls from the Montreal Gazetteon Tuesday.

The AMT went to tender last December on the double-decker cars to be used on the Candiac, Vaudreuil-Hudson and St-Jérôme lines. The new cars would allow the AMT to move the old cars to the agency’s busiest Deux-Montagnes Line, bringing double-deckers to that line for the first time. The AMT plans to take the MR-90 cars currently used on that line out of circulation for several months so they can be recommissioned.

St-Pierre said now the agency has to decide if it will issue a new call for tenders, and if so, whether to alter the provision that requires 25 per cent of the trains to be made in Canada.

“We know there are international companies that picked up the documents (in December when the call for tenders was issued),” St-Pierre said.

She added it’s possible Bombardier can still win a contract to provide the trains if its bid conforms to a new call for tenders.

Related

• How a failure to deliver streetcars on time has ripple effects across Canada

St-Pierre said it’s too soon to know if the cancellation will affect the agency’s timeframe to get the double decker cars rolling by the end of 2018. She added that the recent project proposed by the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec could also affect the tender process, because it could change the AMT’s needs for new cars, since the project calls for the trains on the Deux-Montagnes Line to be replaced with light-rail trains — smaller trains that tend to run more frequently.

Montreal is now on a list of cities disappointed with Bombardier’s rail operations. [...]

http://montrealgazette.com/business...s-103-million-bid-from-bombardier-report-says

In all fairness, the ALP45DPs are built in Poland and Germany, and ostensibly aren't stymied by Bombardier's Cdn operations. But they also don't meet any Cdn content stipulations for Federal Infrastructure grants. So what other supplier can satisfy the funding requirements for Cdn Gov't money and meet the "regs" that some insist must be part of the deal?

I suggest that at least one of the trainsets be named "Hobson's Choice".

 

[mdrejhon]

The last while, I did some extensive reading on the Talgo exotic "onboard maintenance" and it appears to be a policy Talgo started after the bad experience of the 1940s and 1950s where cash strapped railroads ran Talgos into the ground and gave the brand a bad rap.

Talgo now absolutely refuses to sell trainsets without a maintenance contract, and then makes it a policy to have a tech onboard all moving trains.

They even do mudane tasks such as change lightbulbs and fix broken recliners "en-motion", and on the fly so the train does not need to be taken out of service! Sounded closer to white glove service rather than techs trying to keep trains together with duct tape and chewing gum (like the UPX trains seems to be).

To Talgo's credit, the Talgo-driven Amtrak Cascade is one of Amtrak's most reliable with a 98-99% availability record.

VIA concerns, before choosing a bid, could include sending scouts to Talgo lines and asking operators there how they felt about Talgo, etc. Same should he done for any other brand, too.

This tells the flip side story, and we shouldn't necessarily jump to conclusions about Talgo quality...

 

[smallspy]

VIA is well aware about Talgo, and their reputation. They were seriously looking at leasing or buying the two sets built for Wisconsin. There is no need for them to send scouts anywhere.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[steveintoronto]

They were seriously looking at leasing or buying the two sets built for Wisconsin.

Interesting, and it would certainly make sense.

The VIA Request for Proposal (RFP), on close checking, isn't. It's a "Notice To Industry". I was checking an aspect of it, and when entering "proposal" into a page search, could only find this result:
[...]
VIA Rail has identified to its shareholder, the Government of Canada, that it must proceed with
the replacement of its Corridor fleet.
It is in this context that the 2016-2017 Budget of the Government of Canada proposes to provide
funding to VIA Rail to support technical studies and other pre-procurement activities related to the
renewal of VIA Rail’s Corridor fleet. It is further to such proposal that VIA Rail issues this notice.
Time is of the essence. Accordingly, VIA Rail hereby gives notice to potential suppliers that it
intends to invite industry to submit credentials, current product pipeline information, and relevant
financial information over the coming weeks. VIA Rail’s review of supplier information will be very
important to the basis of its recommendations to the Government of Canada, no later than
September 9, 2016, for contracting authority and funding to VIA Rail to proceed with a formal
procurement process. If such authority and funding are granted to VIA Rail to proceed with the
renewal of its Corridor fleet, the target date for deliveries of the new fleet is expected to begin as
early as 2019.
[...]
VIA Rail intends to hold a one day “Market Day” on July 21, 2016 in Montreal to meet with
interested suppliers. More details on the information to be provided will be included in the
invitation to the Market Day.
[...]

VIA RAIL CANADA NOTICE TO INTERCITY
PASSENGER RAIL SUPPLY INDUSTRY FOR
THE RENEWAL OF ROLLING STOCK

I can still only find one supplier in North Am that meets all the criteria, and it's Talgo.

This isn't a case of being able to compare competing suppliers, and one wonders the purpose of this exercise unless it is intended to produce a default answer, the criteria are so exclusive. "Market Day" should be interesting. And whomever shows must be released as information to the public:

[...]
Acquisition
Acquisition services involve activities undertaken to acquire a good or service to fulfill a properly completed request (including a complete and accurate definition of requirements and certification that funds are available) until entering into or amending a contract.

• Procurement and Contracting Class of Record
  • Professional Services Contracts Personal Information Bank

Procurement of Goods and Services

Description: Includes records related to procurement procedures, contract and requests for proposals templates, procurement plans, contract listings. Records may include information related to the following: tie replacement, supply and installation of continuous welded rail, track construction and upgrade, bridge rehabilitation services, train signal upgrades, signal interface modifications, modification to rail cars, general overall car refurbishment, design and supply of kits for onboard lighting system upgrades, design and supply of various onboard systems, private rail car moves, on-train meal, beverage and equipment purchases, disposal of surplus track material and fleet equipment, fleet car storage and disposal, wheel set purchases, all train-related parts purchases required for maintenance and overhaul.

Document types: Requests for proposals, tender documents, requisitions, purchase orders, analysis grids, contract award recommendations and all pertinent correspondence and reports.

Record number: VIA 4000 [...]

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/access-to-information/info-source

There's a huge factor missing from the information at hand. Very curious, indeed...

 

[crs1026]

I don't pretend to understand the Federal government's procurement process, but I suspect the red tape is pretty thick. One has to hope that VIA knows the ropes and is pursuing a sensible and expedient path through it, so that Via avoids any of the more time-wasting black holes that might get thrown out either by duelling bureaucrats or by miffed unsuccessful bidders.

So far, I haven't seen the words 'icebreaking frigate', 'fighter aircraft' , or 'military support vessel' in the VIA documentation..... nor 'Rennaissance Fleet' ...... so while we may not understand it, let's hope it's the right procedural step to jumpstart approvals, and it's going in the right direction.

- Paul