VIA Rail

[crs1026]

^ Seconded...@lenaitch you ask some very thought provoking questions!

My google-rabbit-hole took me into the minutes of various county Councils along the east end of the Havelock Sub. I learned more than I ever knew about who actually maintains and monitors trails in Eastern Ontario.

I did not find any clear documentation about who owns the Havelock East line, unlike for instance the old CP Ottawa Valley line, which is now municipally owned (eg by Lanark County) all the way from Smiths Falls to Mattawa. It is clear that the Eastern Ontario Trails Alliance has user agreements with various municipalities, effectively making them the custodian of the lines. EOTA's Board minutes make for interesting reading particularly around the status of various abandoned lines - eg see here re CN and Renfrew County and a tidbit re discussion with VIA (see here) Its Board minutes pop up all over local Council agendas, if anyone cares to hunt for them.

As to HFR, VIA apparently did a consultation of local Councils in the summer of 2017. The Eastern Ontario Wardens Caucus expressed support for the proposal, and versions of their resolution appear to have worked its way into local Council discussions.

I'm sure that VIA has the legal leverage to take priority, but it speaks to the reality that acquiring the line isn't as simple as calling CP and agreeing on a figure. There may be multiple negotiations and I'm sure the municipalities and trail interests will look for the best possible deal.... up to and including potentially going to court. That will doubtless add time to the HFR timetable.

As an aside, I find that municipal Council minutes are a wonderful online research tool - it's always interesting what their clerks append to the minutes of their meetings, especially documents that agencies in Ottawa or QP may have delinked in the interest of rewriting past history. Here's a pretty good example from Frontenac Township..... complete with the then-current info page from VIA with its picture of HFR stats as they were being touted in 2017. Notice the comments about decision for the 2019 Federal Budget, and "Deployment in four years".... *sigh*

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

Wonder when the last 'mail train' left Union. 2021 version:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1400494596619182085

 

[lenaitch]

^ Seconded...@lenaitch you ask some very thought provoking questions!

My google-rabbit-hole took me into the minutes of various county Councils along the east end of the Havelock Sub. I learned more than I ever knew about who actually maintains and monitors trails in Eastern Ontario.

I did not find any clear documentation about who owns the Havelock East line, unlike for instance the old CP Ottawa Valley line, which is now municipally owned (eg by Lanark County) all the way from Smiths Falls to Mattawa. It is clear that the Eastern Ontario Trails Alliance has user agreements with various municipalities, effectively making them the custodian of the lines. EOTA's Board minutes make for interesting reading particularly around the status of various abandoned lines - eg see here re CN and Renfrew County and a tidbit re discussion with VIA (see here) Its Board minutes pop up all over local Council agendas, if anyone cares to hunt for them.

As to HFR, VIA apparently did a consultation of local Councils in the summer of 2017. The Eastern Ontario Wardens Caucus expressed support for the proposal, and versions of their resolution appear to have worked its way into local Council discussions.

I'm sure that VIA has the legal leverage to take priority, but it speaks to the reality that acquiring the line isn't as simple as calling CP and agreeing on a figure. There may be multiple negotiations and I'm sure the municipalities and trail interests will look for the best possible deal.... up to and including potentially going to court. That will doubtless add time to the HFR timetable.

As an aside, I find that municipal Council minutes are a wonderful online research tool - it's always interesting what their clerks append to the minutes of their meetings, especially documents that agencies in Ottawa or QP may have delinked in the interest of rewriting past history. Here's a pretty good example from Frontenac Township..... complete with the then-current info page from VIA with its picture of HFR stats as they were being touted in 2017. Notice the comments about decision for the 2019 Federal Budget, and "Deployment in four years".... *sigh*

- Paul

I did note that "Both County and Township political representatives and staff have continued to reinforce with Via the importance of the rail line and having a station in Sharbot Lake to our local economy." In this municipality and others, it will be interesting going forward whether the existence of a station stop turns into a caveat to their continued support.

 

[roger1818]

It certainly would make sense for the municipalities to own the ROW. Looking at CTA's process for transferring or discontinuing railway line operations, step 4 requires the ROW to be offered to the applicable federal, provincial and municipal governments and urban transit authorities for any purpose for no more than net salvage value.

Step 4 – Offer to governments and urban transit authorities​

The railway company shall offer to transfer all of its interest in the railway line to the applicable federal provincial and municipal governments and urban transit authorities. The railway line may be purchased for any purpose for no more than the net salvage value of the line. If the parties cannot agree on the net salvage value of the line within 90 days of any government’s acceptance of the offer, the Agency may, upon application, determine the net salvage value of the line. For further information please see the guidelines for applications on determining Net Salvage Value.

 

[crs1026]

^Having poked through even more Council minutes, (sorry, without bookmarking most to cite here) I did find ample hints that the municipalities along the way have acquired most, if not all, of the right of way east of Havelock. Some of this may be second hand, as Bell may have had easements or ownership for parts for a period of time. The timeframe for acquisition of the line by the Counties appears to be mostly 2010 or later.

The interesting thing about Bell is that they did a fair bit of “easing curves” in their day - ie they negotiated many easements over adjacent land to achieve more direct straight-line placement for poles and presumably fibre. In some cases they acquired multiple parallel paths where individual landowners were uncooperative. It’s a lot easier to straighten a line of poles that a track bed, obviously.

I’m sure VIA will be able to re-acquire ownership, but I would not ignore what may be necessary to make trail users whole or find new routes especially for the Trans Canada trail. Some of the official plans, long term business plans and strategy documents of various counties and trail associations are on line. The interesting discovery for me were some stats on usage of these trail - while we city mice think of trails as being about cycling or walking, and may view off road motor vehicles as noisy and polluting annoyances, I found data showing that roughly 75% of Eastern Ontario trail usage is by motorised vehicles, ie ATVs in summer and snowmobiles in winter. There is a very active tourism economy along the line, attracting group and individual trail riders both winter and summer. One strategy documented that casual use by local residents was the biggest source of user fee evasion - locals treated the trails as an entitlement. This all adds up to a significant stakeholder group who have made investments in the trails and in their own vehicles, and who may depend on revenue from the existing land use. I expect VIA may be asked to underwrite land acquisition and construction to create a replacement off road amenity in places. This group may be noisy and have enough organization to have leverage, so should not be dismissed.

All quite doable, and hopefully already in VIA’s project plan - but another consideration for those who wonder why VIA isn’t out there laying track today.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

^^^That could also explain some of the "derisking" of the project. I don't think the government would be willing to let VIA expropriate the land, as that would come with a political cost, but instead would want VIA to negotiate an amicable agreement with the owners of the ROW. Small, midroute stations may be built to appease those municipalities rather than because of real demand.

Interesting about Bell straightening the ROW. That makes sense as even though fibre doesn't need to be straight, keeping it straight results in less loss and thus fewer amplification nodes.

 

[lenaitch]

^^^That could also explain some of the "derisking" of the project. I don't think the government would be willing to let VIA expropriate the land, as that would come with a political cost, but instead would want VIA to negotiate an amicable agreement with the owners of the ROW. Small, midroute stations may be built to appease those municipalities rather than because of real demand.

Interesting about Bell straightening the ROW. That makes sense as even though fibre doesn't need to be straight, keeping it straight results in less loss and thus fewer amplification nodes.

I don't think he meant that Bell altered the former railway ROW but rather, straightened their easement route (i.e. deviated from the ROW).

 

[crs1026]

I don't think he meant that Bell altered the former railway ROW but rather, straightened their easement route (i.e. deviated from the ROW).

The information about Bell came from some accounts of what was needed to change the title when the municipalities took possession. It seems Bell did not retain ownership of secctions of the ROW where it had moved its lines to a more direct route, so there were gaps that had to be acquired from other owners.

When I look on Streetview, from what one can see at road crossings, there is virtually no pole line left along the ROW. There are lots of those orange markers that are sometimes used to mark buried cables or fiber, but it's hard to tell if they are just trail markers or Bell markers. So the Bell easements may have been from pre-fiber days, and are now obsolete. Interesting nonetheless.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

From trips down that way (wife used to live in Sharbot Lake) the metal plates on posts visible from the road certainly did look like buried cable markers, and a few Streetview samples show what look like the new plastic marker stakes, but you are correct, hard to know for certain. The easement or parts of it on the ROW could simply have been abandoned. When we had the farm, the title papers included a 1950 easement document for a large buried Bell cable which had long since been abandoned (at least we assumed so - a neighbour's plough severed it and nobody showed up!)

 

[CapitalSeven]

Ah, Sharbot Lake. That's going to be interesting; there are no solutions to the route past there that are both affordable and easy.

 

[Bordercollie]

Ah, Sharbot Lake. That's going to be interesting; there are no solutions to the route past there that are both affordable and easy.

Are there any industries that would benefit from this new rail line? By allowing freight operations at night would provide additional revenue.

Also being able to run freight trains at night that want to run from Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal and take advantage of the extra capacity might provide more revenue.
Perhaps a multi modal system which allow containers to be loaded and unloaded at stations would provide additional revenue.

Dispatching would be done by VIA so they could control all of the traffic and allow passenger trains priority.

 

[Urban Sky]

No single-tracked line will ever allow for the freight train volumes you would need to accommodate to have any chance of generating enough track access payment revenues to offset the dramatic increase in capital costs inherent from the fact that a mixed rail line allows for less super-elevation than a passenger-only one...

 

[nfitz]

Ah, Sharbot Lake. That's going to be interesting; there are no solutions to the route past there that are both affordable and easy.

Yeah, that's going to be interesting.

I'd be tempted to build a bypass to the east, with a series of bridges across that string of islands in Sharbot Lake. Which would save a minute or two ... Not cheap though.

 

[Darwinkgo]

^^^That could also explain some of the "derisking" of the project. I don't think the government would be willing to let VIA expropriate the land, as that would come with a political cost, but instead would want VIA to negotiate an amicable agreement with the owners of the ROW. Small, midroute stations may be built to appease those municipalities rather than because of real demand.

Interesting about Bell straightening the ROW. That makes sense as even though fibre doesn't need to be straight, keeping it straight results in less loss and thus fewer amplification nodes.

Why? The government it self does this for infrastructure projects, they let private companies do this for infrastructure projects - why wouldn't they let a public company do this?

It happens a lot - maybe just because of the volume of it going on all the time you don't really notice it - the volume of it keeps all but the most cantankerous land owners out of the public sphere. As a land owner, since you are entitled to legal costs no matter the outcome of the expropriation or purchase, the land owners get to hire really good lawyers. There is little reason to make a public fuss unless your position is your land should be yours no matter any decision by government.

 

[crs1026]

^ No doubt VIA would win the expropriation, and the opponents may privately acknowledge that, but “pick your battles” applies, and this is politics after all.

The government will likely want to get credit for helping the communities (and the user associations, which as I noted are pretty organised and may reach further than one may imagine) replace the Trans Canada trail.

Then there is Sharbot Lake... where the one building that most encroaches the row is the town’s medical clinic.

Imagine the headline - “VIA proposal leaves town without hiking trails and medical access”. Sure, the expropriation will make them whole financially. but positioning as partners up front and initiating the replacement amenities delivers much better photo ops. And the government assumes the risk anyways, and the land purchase money will be spent by Ottawa anyways. And no one wants the project delayed by squabbles.

Makes sense to me to get out ahead of all his and bring good news.

- Paul