VIA Rail

[SaugeenJunction]

Just FYI I have reached out to Via Rail to get more details about the recent interviews done with its CEO about getting HFR going. Expect a story on the site in the next few days - probably an opinion piece. I moved back to Toronto from London UK in 2014 so perhaps you can imagine my views on Via's current service!

If you can get VIA to tell us if they are taking the Peterborough route or the Kingston route for HFR, that would clear up a lot of speculation on this thread . Thanks for reaching out for more details, I'm looking forward to hear what they say.

 

[dowlingm]

I distinctly remember in college taking the Via home and a british dude quite vocally complaining on how slow the train was haha.

Since almost all our mainlines were built while we were a Dominion isn't this a little bit Brit dude's fault? #colonieshaveconsequences

 

[kEiThZ]

The thing that has me worried and skeptical about HFR is the whole insistence that it will be run along the Peterborough corridor and not along the lakeshore. It's not politically saleable if you ask for $4 billion just to serve Toronto-Ottawa and Montreal and cut out Kingston, Belleville and Coburg. Not to mention the smaller markets.

On the other hand, building an exclusive corridor near the lakeshore would in effect be HSR. So $10 billion at least.

Is there an in-between where HFR can be done using the current corridor with just extra tracks? Does anybody know?

 

[dowlingm]

. That may have led some to asssume that the RDC's are going to run both lines. That appears unlikely, there are only about 3 cars available. A Sarnia-London shuttle that connects with a Windsor train in London is possible, and a good application for RDC's. I'm a bit skeptical that VIA wants to put RDC's back on the St Mary's leg considering the snow drifting problems they always had through there.

Based on stuff I read a few weeks back, my supposition was that they would operate some sort of Windsor-London-Sarnia-London-Sarnia-London-Windsor diagram. The first service ex Sarnia and last to Sarnia likely to be conventional locohaul to/from Toronto.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Big changes could be coming to the Canada-U.S. border
"He (Prime Minister Trudeau) intends to endorse a pre-clearance experiment that would allow people to clear customs at train stations, bus stations and off highways the same way they already can at several Canadian airports"

This could be great for US-Canada VIA train trips. Hopefully it positively improves the border clearance time for Amtrak's Maple Leaf at Niagara Falls.

Here is a crackpot idea I just had (which will never happen, nor should it): VIA HFR corridor from Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto-West Harbour-Niagara Falls.

 

[crs1026]

Is there an in-between where HFR can be done using the current corridor with just extra tracks? Does anybody know?

There have been so many scenarios. My lowest cost scenario:
- Coproduction on CP from De Beaujeu to Beare
- New heavy duty freight track Coteau to De Beaujeu ( only 6 miles)
- CTC on CP Winchester Sub, not necessarily retaining all double track
- Eight new siding extensions on CP Smiths Falls to Cherrywood, three mile siding length
- Connecting track CN to CP at Beare, and near Belleville
- Complete a third track on Kingston Sub Belleville to Kingston, 40 mph freight speed, not signalled, dedicated to CN roadswitchers, passing track every 20 miles
- Possibly short third track for CN Oshawa to Bowmanville, in Cobourg and Port Hope
VIA takes posession of CN line Liverpool to Coteau. CN retains trackage rights for local shipments only east of Kingston. CN serves Kingston and Bath via local track from Belleville. CN serves customers east of Kingston by roadswitchers based in Brockville, accessed via trackage rights from Smiths Falls

At this point, VIA has eliminated freight interference, which is sufficient to achieve a 4 hour schedule to Montreal and less to Ottawa, on greater frequency, with existing track and signals. From that point, you can incrementally upgrade with gradual growth in ridership.

- ViA slowly upgrades Toronto- Kingston to 120 mph service on the two former CN tracks, which become passenger-only.
- Later, the Gananoque connection is constructed as an incremental project.
- Later, Smiths Falls Sub is double tracked.
- Later, this line is electrified

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

@crs1026

Appreciate the details very much. That paints a picture of how this can be achieved. Now Desjardins-Sicilano says that HFR can be done by 2019. Do you think your hypothesized plan would be achievable. I think his 2019 proposal is for the Peterborough routing.

 

[crs1026]

2019 is not possible if the Peterboro line is the route. Huge amount of environmental and design work required, and then lots of construction. Let's not pretend this is "fixing" an old rail line. It would be a total new construction job. And some of the land has been sold and might require expropriation. There are buildings on the old ROW in places. I don't believe this is actually the preferred route.

I predict that First Nations consultation and negotiation will be part of the deal. There is a real opportunity to do something positive in this regard, on whatever route. VIA contracts out track maintenance already, and this could be an opportunity for a partnership - set up a First Nations run contracting firm to do the civil construction work and then the track maintenance. The First Nations along the Lakeshore are sophisticated and could manage this. Could lead to skills development and job opportunities. I would predict that Cabinet would insist on leveraging this project along these lines.

Co-production could be in place by late 2019. One year of design and two summers to build the junctions at Beare and De Beaujeau, and lengthen the sidings. CTC on the Winchester is doable in this time frame.

Once you get the bulk of the freight off the CN Kingston line, you get an immediate timetable improvement thru both faster schedules and more frequent trains, and you can work at your own pace from there. CN can run its road switchers at night to serve on line customers - the freight tonnage would not be enough to degrade tracks. Once you have a third track for CN, you upgrade the two existing tracks and install PTC to give you 125 mph capability. The line needs to be grade separated so this might take a while as crossings are eliminated. CN won't need a third track end to end - there are only customers in a handful of places.

If the Kingston-Smiths Falls short cut is part of the plan (and it should be) the Kingston-Brockville-Coteau leg might only need to be 100 mph or so. That's enough for direct Montreal-Toronto service to be improved. CN can stay on the existing rails. I would plan for 125 mph Oshawa-Kingston-Smiths Falls - Ottawa - Coteau only.

- Paul

 

[1overcosc]

I predict that First Nations consultation and negotiation will be part of the deal. There is a real opportunity to do something positive in this regard, on whatever route. VIA contracts out track maintenance already, and this could be an opportunity for a partnership - set up a First Nations run contracting firm to do the civil construction work and then the track maintenance. The First Nations along the Lakeshore are sophisticated and could manage this. Could lead to skills development and job opportunities. I would predict that Cabinet would insist on leveraging this project along these lines.

You mean the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte / Tyendinega? AFAIK they're the only FN along the lakeshore.. and it's a reserve of about 2,000 people. We're not exactly talking about a huge FN population here.

 

[gweed123]

Since almost all our mainlines were built while we were a Dominion isn't this a little bit Brit dude's fault? #colonieshaveconsequences

To be fair, their response could probably be: "Well you've had 150 years to upgrade ". That's like living in a Victorian house and blaming the original owner because the windows are drafty, haha.

 

[ShonTron]

I read elsewhere (the Canadian-Passenger-Rail list serve) that the GEXR track between Stratford and London is deteriorating, and VIA trains are now restricted to 40MPH. This explains why whenever I'm taking VIA home from Kitchener and Guelph, the train leaves London on time, but is always 20-30 minutes late by the time it comes to Kitchener. That's the main bit of bolted track left.

 

[crs1026]

You mean the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte / Tyendinega? AFAIK they're the only FN along the lakeshore.. and it's a reserve of about 2,000 people. We're not exactly talking about a huge FN population here.

They are one, but I was thinking of the whole Montreal- Toronto - Ottawa area. And the population living off reserve who may be from further afield. It's a case of looking for the opportunity and seeing what's possible. There may be leverage to ongoing land claims settle,ent as well.

I can't imagine any significant federal infrastructure project being initiated without a statement of what FN advancement is contemplated. It's the business we are in these days, and rightly so.

- Paul

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

You mean the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte / Tyendinega? AFAIK they're the only FN along the lakeshore.. and it's a reserve of about 2,000 people. We're not exactly talking about a huge FN population here.

The size of an Aboriginal community does not have a bearing on the strength and reach of their Aboriginal and Treaty rights. Be careful in trying to extrapolate that reasoning.

 

[dowlingm]

Big changes could be coming to the Canada-U.S. border
"He (Prime Minister Trudeau) intends to endorse a pre-clearance experiment that would allow people to clear customs at train stations, bus stations and off highways the same way they already can at several Canadian airports"

This could be great for US-Canada VIA train trips. Hopefully it positively improves the border clearance time for Amtrak's Maple Leaf at Niagara Falls.

Given how long it has taken to do Montreal Central so Amtrak Adirondack doesn't have to stop at Rouses' Point, and to facilitate extending Amtrak Vermonter to Montreal from St. Albans VT, I wouldn't hold my breath on these other ideas. Consider also when contemplating Maple Leaf that the intermediate Adirondack stop between the border and Central is being dropped when this goes live, whereas Maple Leaf makes several intermediate stops.

I think this is a much bigger win for Toronto Island Airport which is also announced to get preclearance.

 

[1overcosc]

The size of an Aboriginal community does not have a bearing on the strength and reach of their Aboriginal and Treaty rights. Be careful in trying to extrapolate that reasoning.

You misinterpret what I'm saying. (Rest assured I'm very sympathetic on these fronts; I've always been a big champion for FN treaty rights).

What I meant was that, as a community with only 2,000 people, they might not have enough of a labour force available to be doing all the track maintenance and such.