VIA Rail

[steveintoronto]

No he's not. He's referring to in-production. TC approval is not an issue if they generally meet US standards.

There's lot's of flexibility - Waterloo is even running Flexitys on main-line track (though not at the same time that locomotives will run).

I've already mentioned the O-Train waivers. In fact, quoted it at length from two government sources. I also pointed out the Talents and Lints running on a waiver and that they are run on mainlines in Germany and elsewhere, but not in Canada.

[TC approval is not an issue if they generally meet US standards.]

Fascinating news! So this means VIA can run the Stadler KISS?

Legally speaking, the legislation requires the *operator* to apply for approval, not the manufacturer, albeit manufacturers do apply for approval, ostensibly at their own expense, to claim the prerequisites are already met.

This is wonderful news Fitz. So all the waivers the FRA has issued can be had in Canada too?

Source: Denton County Transportation Authority (DCTA) Jun 5, 2012

On Monday, June 4, 2012, Administrator Joseph Szabo of the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) in conjunction with the American Public Transportation Association Annual Rail Conference formally announced approval of DCTA’s request to operate the Stadler GTW concurrent with traditional, compliant equipment. This means that for the first time ever; light-weight/fuel efficient, eco-friendly low-floor vehicles will be permitted to operate in rail corridors concurrently with traditionally compliant vehicles. The waiver, a first of its kind, will expand commuter rail options for transportation authorities across the United States.

In 2009, the FRA’s Rail Safety Advisory Committee (RSAC) prepared a set of technical criteria and procedures for evaluating passenger rail train-sets that have been built to alternative designs. The alternative designs enable lighter, more fuel-efficient rail vehicles equipped with a Crash Energy Management system to commingle with traditionally compliant equipment. The DCTA/Stadler alternative design waiver is the first comprehensive submittal that follows the RSAC Engineering Task Force (ETF) procedures for Tier I equipment. The approval of the DCTA/Stadler waiver request demonstrates that the enhanced crashworthiness and passenger protection systems inherent to DCTA’s new rail vehicles meet the latest and most stringent safety standards in the U.S.

“Stadler is excited and proud to have the opportunity of announcing this milestone and appreciates the immense joint effort conducted by DCTA and the FRA,” stated Steve Bonina, Stadler USA president. “Stadler continues to be hopeful that the FRA codifies the RSAC guidelines into regulatory requirements in order to open the North American Rail Network to this outstanding, safer, eco-friendly rail technology, which will help to make rail systems safer, more efficient, more reliable and less costly.”

http://www.masstransitmag.com/press...ated-use-of-stadler-gtw-rail-vehicle-for-dcta

That was 2012, five and a half years ago. Perhaps someone, Fitz for instance, can explain why VIA isn't considering these instead of the Budds, or why Metrolinx didn't consider them for the UPX?

Quite a story there...

Waterloo is even running Flexitys on main-line track

Really? Since you wish to nit-pick, I suggest you double-check that. It's a spur.

The Region delegated operation of line to the Goderich-Exeter Railway company, and they currently run night-time freight on it a few times a week, mostly to plants in Elmira. This will continue after Ion is operational with freight being limited to roughly 1am to 5am. The Waterloo Spur connects with the GEXR-owned lines near Weber & Victoria in Kitchener.

https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/comments/3l7wpn/whats_the_deal_with_the_train_track_that_runs/

Again, the precedent was set for temporal freight separation on trolley, tram or streetcar lines in the US long ago. Some even have their own wholly owned freight operations. San Diego Trolley immediately comes to mind, but there are more, LIRR being a notable one:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=QK7jJDv-DW4C&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=san+diego+trolley+night+time+freight&source=bl&ots=XG5Va0iKt2&sig=x5qqtsr5rjCru1MpeJ4Si2eP_V8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSufmLxYvYAhViw4MKHQheCTAQ6AEIUjAG#v=onepage&q=san diego trolley night time freight&f=false

So again, Fitz, since the US does it under FRA sanction, then why not in Canada? (Trillium Line a glaring exception, already discussed here).

 

[steveintoronto]

Haven't posted here in a while but have been lurking. Canada's Minister of Infrastructure just posted this on Twitter:

[...]
So now that the Infrastructure Bank is running, I am sure that they will want to start announcing projects (after due diligence of course). I haven't been surprised that there hasn't been any new info on HFR, as the CIB wasn't running yet. But now that it is, it is make or break time for this project. I know there have been varying opinions about if this project will get funded or not, but for political reasons I think that it will.

Bit more showing now on CTV and the wires:

The Canadian Press
Published Thursday, December 14, 2017 2:51PM EST

OTTAWA -- A board director for the new federal infrastructure financing agency is temporarily stepping down from his post to take on a top executive job in the organization.

Bruno Guilmette was appointed last month to the board of directors of the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

The agency says Guilmette will become interim chief investment officer to oversee officials reviewing project proposals and crafting deals -- essentially letting the agency start doing what the federal government envisioned it would.

Board chair Janice Fukakusa says the agency realized it needed to move quickly to build its ability to review and decide on investments.

Fukakusa, a former Royal Bank executive, will remain interim CEO of the agency until the government names someone to the job.

The Liberals promised the Toronto-based financing agency would up and running by the end of 2017.

The office in the city's downtown core is open and for the moment is the only physical location the bank envisions, but its corporate plan leaves open the possibility of expanding to new locations in the future.

The corporate plan tabled in Parliament early last month shows that the agency expects to spend more than $16.1 million between July 2017 and the end March 2018 to hire executives, employees, legal and information technology services and management consultants as part of start-up costs.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/new...im-executive-to-oversee-investments-1.3721934

There's something not right about this...

 

[crs1026]

There's something not right about this...

What's not right is that the whole IB project is languishing, and nobody - beyond us VIA supporters who have an ulterior motive for wanting it on the road - cares a whit.

I don't hear the investment community or the industries that might be waiting for infrastructure contracts up in arms, complaining that the slow pace is costing them opportunities or profits. Nor is the Opposition screaming that the Government isn't fulfilling its mandate. In theory, bad things happen in political space when government renegs on a promise - but maybe in this case everyone will just look the other way and breathe a quiet sigh of relief.

To abuse the Dixie Chicks, the IB is a missing person that nobody misses at all.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

This is wonderful news Fitz. So all the waivers the FRA has issued can be had in Canada too?

This bizarre obsession with routine government paperwork is beyond me.

Do you have an actual example of an application to the CTA of equipment in use in the USA that was refused?

That was 2012, five and a half years ago. Perhaps someone, Fitz for instance, can explain why VIA isn't considering these instead of the Budds, or why Metrolinx didn't consider them for the UPX?

I have no idea why VIA does, what it does. Given they think they can actually run Toronto to Ottawa services through Peterborough as fast as they currently do through Kingston, I think it's pretty clear, they have some major failings there.

As for the UPX units, it's been 7 years since Metrolinx ordered these vehicles, and 8 years since SMART specced them.

Really? Since you wish to nit-pick, I suggest you double-check that. It's a spur.

I was referring to the type of operation, not the current physical layout. As you well know. I'm not sure how being deliberately obstinate helps the discussion.

 

[steveintoronto]

What's not right is that the whole IB project is languishing, and nobody - beyond us VIA supporters who have an ulterior motive for wanting it on the road - cares a whit.

Yeah, just the fact that finding that news, and I'm a newshound, would have gone completely unnoticed save for Alex' heads-up is indicative of how this is 'on the back burner'.

The search was on for a *permanent" CEO for months. And now they announce interim talking heads? My gist through contacts, and it is only a few insiders, hardly a usable sample to show trend, is that they just aren't moved by this exercise either.

This has worked in many other nations, and Cdn pension funds have participated eagerly (Australia is a prime example, as is the UK, especially for rail infra investment) but interest here is tepid at best it seems.

I'm waiting for an inside investigative reporter's article on this. The fireworks seem to be wet.

 

[steveintoronto]

As you well know. I'm not sure how being deliberately obstinate helps the discussion.

Then don't do it.

Do you have an actual example of an application to the CTA of equipment in use in the USA that was refused?

The CTA doesn't regulate equipment. That's for Transport Canada, and rules applied according to the Railway Safety Act.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/railsafety/rules-tco76-338.htm

The CTA regulates *routes and service*.

Metrolinx (GO Transit prior) report that discusses this:
http://www.gotransit.com/electrific...y/docs/ElectricificationStudy_FinalReport.pdf

 

[kEiThZ]

What's not right is that the whole IB project is languishing, and nobody - beyond us VIA supporters who have an ulterior motive for wanting it on the road - cares a whit.

I don't hear the investment community or the industries that might be waiting for infrastructure contracts up in arms, complaining that the slow pace is costing them opportunities or profits. Nor is the Opposition screaming that the Government isn't fulfilling its mandate. In theory, bad things happen in political space when government renegs on a promise - but maybe in this case everyone will just look the other way and breathe a quiet sigh of relief.

To abuse the Dixie Chicks, the IB is a missing person that nobody misses at all.

- Paul

Why should the investment community care? They'll care when there are real dollars involved. For now, it's a bunch of government PR about every appointment to the board. The bank is not fully up and running and they aren't doing real analysis on business cases. Even the budget is somewhat uncertain. Sure, we know what the government has set aside for them. But the schedule for when they get funds seems amorphous. And then there's ambiguity on their goals. Is it to produce a return? Is it to produce xyz amount of investment in certain sectors? How will they score projects? Who determines priority for financing?

Until all there is clarity on all that and more, I don't see why any mainstream investment house should care. And that brings me back to my original criticism of this government. I am supremely disappointed with them. I feel cheated. I voted for infrastructure. Seems like the government took the "small deficit to build infrastructure" as an excuse to run large deficits, of which most of it is not on infrastructure. And what they are largely spending on are projects that garner photo ops rather than prioritizing national interests (which should be in the feds bailiwick). Ridiculous.

 

[nfitz]

The CTA doesn't regulate equipment. That's for Transport Canada, and rules applied according to the Railway Safety Act.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/railsafety/rules-tco76-338.htm

The Railway Safety Act is full of references to the CTA.

What Transport Canada does has change significantly to what it did when I worked them. Either way, there's no need to be obstinate, simply answer the question for Transport Canada. Do you have an actual example of an application to the Transport Canada of equipment in use in the USA that was refused?

Metrolinx (GO Transit prior) report that discusses this:
http://www.gotransit.com/electrific...y/docs/ElectricificationStudy_FinalReport.pdf

[/quote]There seem to be nothing in their about Transport Canada not licensing something.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In February I'm taking the HSR from Taipei to Kaohsiung City, my first trip in Asia on an intercity train. I'm also taking a shorter train from Guangzhou to Hong Kong, and local rail in Seoul. I'll try to get some pics.

I imagine the comparison to my recent VIA trip from Toronto to Montreal will be noteworthy.

 

[steveintoronto]

To those taking note of yesterday's horrific Amtrak event, the use of Talgo cars was an unmistakable feature. My first thought was "Oh my God, I hope the unique for North Am wheelsets had nothing to with the derailment" and indeed it now appears they weren't, but what does appear to have been a benefit is the necessity of the draw-bar to link those coaches into sets, those allowing some coaches to stay supported even when dangling off the bridge involved.

UNIQUE TECHNOLOGY
#1
Independently rotating and self-guiding wheels
Talgo is the only manufacturer to use a system in which each of the wheels on an axle, both left and right, can rotate at different speeds. This not only improves passenger comfort within the coaches, but it also minimises the wear to infrastructure caused by our trains.

https://www.talgo.com/en/rolling-stock/technological-principles/

So far, it appears the train was going more than twice the track speed indicated for that area, and no conventional trainset could have handled that curve at that speed. Yet again, Positive Train Control (PTC) takes the limelight.

The Talgo system will come under great scrutiny as the accident is deconstructed, and most likely showing a benefit in such situations.

 

[robmausser]

To those taking note of yesterday's horrific Amtrak event, the use of Talgo cars was an unmistakable feature. My first thought was "Oh my God, I hope the unique for North Am wheelsets had nothing to with the derailment" and indeed it now appears they weren't, but what does appear to have been a benefit is the necessity of the draw-bar to link those coaches into sets, those allowing some coaches to stay supported even when dangling off the bridge involved.


https://www.talgo.com/en/rolling-stock/technological-principles/

So far, it appears the train was going more than twice the track speed indicated for that area, and no conventional trainset could have handled that curve at that speed. Yet again, Positive Train Control (PTC) takes the limelight.

The Talgo system will come under great scrutiny as the accident is deconstructed, and most likely showing a benefit in such situations.

What is really unfortunate is that the Siemens Charger locomotive had PTC onboard, and WSDOT was in the process of installing PTC on the track. It was set to go live in the new year.

All of this would have been prevented.

 

[steveintoronto]

What is really unfortunate is that the Siemens Charger locomotive had PTC onboard, and WSDOT was in the process of installing PTC on the track. It was set to go live in the new year.

All of this would have been prevented.

Oh man....I haven't had time to follow the latest, but that truly is tragic.

 

[Urban Sky]

Oh man....I haven't had time to follow the latest, but that truly is tragic.

Not much less tragic: two out of the three confirmed fatalities were passenger high-profile rail advocates (R.I.P, Jim Hamre and Zack Willhoite), which deliberately booked the first scheduled train over the new bypass...

Release #17-20
RPA Board Member Jim Hamre and Member Zack Willhoite Reported Among Fatalities in Amtrak Cascades Derailment
December 19, 2017

For Immediate Release (17-20)

December 19, 2017

Contact: Xenophon Strategies - (202) 289-4001

Passionate Train Advocates Remembered as Devoted to Family and Friends

Washington D.C. - The rail community is shocked at the loss of two Rail Passengers Association members Jim Hamre and Zack Willhoite, who reports have confirmed are among the three fatalities in the Amtrak derailment that occured yesterday near Tacoma, Wash. Both men were devoted to their family and friends, as well as passionate advocates for passenger railroad and advancing the advocacy work of RPA. While we wait on the National Transportation Safety Board’s investigation into the cause of the accident, the entire Rail Passengers Association membership and staff will mourn their loss. Our deepest sympathies go out to each of their families.

"Jim was among the country's most-respected and effective rail advocates and a good friend and mentor to me. I will miss his counsel, and our community is poorer for his loss," said Rail Passengers Association President Jim Mathews. “Both Jim and Zack have been advocates of transit and passenger rail for decades, and we can’t thank them enough for their work. Our thoughts are with their families at this time, as they work through this tragedy.”

"Jim was proud of the part that rail advocates played as stakeholders in expanding passenger rail services in the Northwest,” said RPA Chairman Peter LeCody. “Last year he took my wife and me on a tour of the region showing how important rail is to connect us in our daily lives. I will miss my friend Jim."

Jim Hamre was a board member for the Rail Passengers Association, in addition to being a vice president of All Aboard Washington. Jim started work on the Milwaukee Road in the early 1970's while studying at Washington State University. He moved on to work at the Washington State Department of Transportation, and got involved in transportation advocacy in the early 1980's. Jim combined personability and kindness, and paired it with an intricate and detailed knowledge of transit policy and technical insight. This made him an extremely powerful advocate and an inspiration for others.

Zack Willhoite was a member of the Rail Passengers Association, and also on the board of All Aboard Washington, serving as the Director of Information Technology. He was a member of the AAW since 1998 and on its board for 10 years. Zack has been a Pierce Transit employee since 2008.

RPA asks for privacy for the families as they come to terms with this tragedy. In the coming days, our Association will share the best ways to celebrate the lives that were lost.

About the Rail Passengers Association

The Rail Passengers Association is the oldest and largest national organization speaking for the nearly 40 million users of passenger trains and rail transit. We have worked since 1967 to expand the quality and quantity of passenger rail in the U.S. Our mission is to work towards a modern, customer-focused national passenger train network that provides a travel choice Americans want. Our work is supported by more than 28,000 individual members nationwide.

https://www.narprail.org/happening-now/news/releases/release-17-20/

 

[SaugeenJunction]

The Amtrak derailment reminds me of when VIA #92 derailed in Burlington in 2012:

 

[steveintoronto]

The Amtrak derailment reminds me of when VIA #92 derailed in Burlington in 2012:

There's been a series of North Am accidents down to 'operator error' in the last decade or so. Many remarkably similar. I've just accessed the Transportation Safety Board reports and others, it's a bit too macabre to post them now.

Suffice to say this CBC headline at the time is not only accurate, it's prophetic, and the debate will be very heated here in Canada, as the US, although lagging, is far ahead of us on implementation of safety systems, most notably PTC:

Via derailment report says crew misperceived warning signal
'This will happen again,' unless there are changes after deadly 2012 derailment, TSB warns
By Dave Seglins and John Nicol , CBC News Posted: Jun 11, 2013 5:03 AM ET Last Updated: Jun 11, 2013 11:01 PM ET

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/via-derailment-report-says-crew-misperceived-warning-signal-1.1381387

Amidst the horror, I have to repeat my observation on "draw bars" tying the carriages together by necessity due to the shared single pair wheelsets (not bogies).

There's been many comments by a wide array of observers, some of them from within the industry, as to how (gist) "It's a miracle that more weren't killed".

It's too soon to state this unequivocally, but the wheelset arrangements and fixed draw-bars (only unlinkable during pit servicing) might have been a good part of the 'miracle'. I must repeat though, that's a subjective observation. In other aspects, the lack of a 'break point' might have compounded the coaches 'accordianing' . These are all things that will be closely examined. This will be the first time in modern history for US investigators to study the safety in situ of this type of 'trainset' accident.

Addendum: I know I'm going to be challenged on my supposition, these forums especially are rife with 'sensitivities' when Cdn practice is compared to other examples, so I'm going to quote more from the CBC article linked:

[...]
Canada 'way behind' other countries
"About once a month, somewhere in Canada there's a disconnect between what the signal displays and the action the crew takes," said Tadros. She said Canada is "way behind" other countries that already have positive train control, including many European countries and railways in India and China.

"We need to fix this because if we don’t, it will happen again," she said.
The incident has thrown new fuel into the debate over positive train control systems (PTC).

Lawmakers in the United States passed legislation recently demanding that some forms of PTC be implemented across the country by 2015.

Several railways, including Amtrak, and some local commuter services already employ a variation of PTC. But the nationwide system demanded by U.S. Congress is facing resistance and pushback from the rail industry, which says the cost and complexity of installing PTC systems across America by 2015 is unattainable.

So far, no major Canadian railroad has implemented PTC. CN owns and maintains the tracks where the Via derailment took place.

In a statement, Via said it plans to have outward-facing cameras installed on all its trains by 2014. Installation of voice recorders is expected to be done by later that same year. After that, the passenger rail company said it will consider installing inward-facing cameras.

In a separate statement, CN said it "will continue to work closely with Transport Canada ... on the subject of physical fail-safe train controls."

CN said it is working to comply with rules mandating PTC in the United States, where CN has extensive operations.

However, CN also expressed some doubt about PTC's ability to prevent such accidents.

"PTC, as currently being implemented, is a technologically complex system that as of yet has not been proven in any large scale industry implementation," the release states. "In CN's view, further deployment of PTC beyond the existing mandated rollout should not be pursued until we can fully validate the reliability and operability of the system."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/via-derailment-report-says-crew-misperceived-warning-signal-1.1381387

Cue the endless excuses...