VIA Rail

[steveintoronto]

Sure would like to know what the documents in the glossy handout folders on the table in that photo consist of. - Paul

Uncoupled trains...naked.

It's now very easy and common, if not expected, to do in-house presentations to look 'professional'. Or have a PR firm do it for you. Even board meetings.

As to other 'reports'...we'll have to wait. FOI applications have been made for a number of them.

 

[steveintoronto]

More of the Kawartha story:

Mayor lobbies for VIA Rail stop in Pontypool

Easier access to GTA would benefit both employment and tourism sectors of City of Kawartha Lakes
News Aug 18, 2017 02:19 by Bill Hodgins Kawartha Lakes This Week

PONTYPOOL - Heather Stauble can remember when she could simply flag down a passenger train from her yard and arrive at Toronto’s Union Station a little more than an hour later.

Any prospect of something even close to that returning to the community of Pontypool is reason to be excited, says the Ward 16 councillor.

Last week, Mayor Andy Letham and other municipal leaders from across central and eastern Ontario met with VIA Rail officials about a proposed passenger service running between Ottawa and Toronto. Mayor Letham, specifically, lobbied for a stop to be included in Pontypool.

“We have expressed our interest in a stop in Pontypool and the route would continue on to Peterborough, offering a connection for our region’s workforce to the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor,” a release from the City stated.

Mayor Letham took it further.

“I’m pleased that discussions are moving along and that Kawartha Lakes is continuing to advocate to be on the map for the new route. It’s essential that we allow more opportunities for our workforce to be connected to large urban areas like Toronto and Ottawa. It would also enhance our ability to draw tourists from these urban centres and allow our community easier access to medical appointments in the GTA.”

His comments follow an announcement last month from VIA that it is in the early stages of a plan that would see frequent passenger rail service between Ottawa and Toronto as part of a longer line along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. The current proposal includes a stop in Peterborough and would take a path through Pontypool en route to Toronto.

Coun. Stauble says the tracks are still in use regularly, though it is currently limited to freight transport.

“If it does happen it would be good. This is what they built this area around in the first place.”

But it’s not the first time Pontypool residents have heard this kind of plan.

Nine years ago, funding for the project was announced in the federal budget, delivered by then Finance Minister Jim Flaherty. At the time, he pledged $500 million to support capital investments in public transit across Canada, including the reinstatement of the rail service, which was cancelled in 1990. He predicted that the service would be up and running by 2010.

Still, Coun. Stauble says it feels as though there is more steam behind the idea this time.

“There seems to be more interest in getting it going again. Hopefully, that is the case.”

A number of people in the community have shared with her their excitement about the possibility of passenger rail service returning to the area.

“It would be opening up a lot of possibilities for people to commute to the Greater Toronto Area along the route. It would be a tremendous connection for the people of Kawartha Lakes.”

by Bill Hodgins
Follow Bill Hodgins on Twitter @bhwrites

https://www.mykawartha.com/news-story/7509495-mayor-lobbies-for-via-rail-stop-in-pontypool/

 

[MisterF]

Yes, Kingston is not on the Canadian Shield and is surrounded mostly by farmland. But it could still be a major growth area, which I could see happening if HSR ever happens. The Via proposal probably won't make that much of a difference. Kingston used to be much more important than it is and I always found it a bit odd that it never grew to be larger.

Growing a city on the Canadian Shield would be more challenging because it costs so much to build through all that rock.

https://kawarthanow.com/2017/08/17/kawartha-lakes-via-rail/

A stop in Pontypool makes sense for the same reason as stops in Gananoque or Sharbot Lake. It might get one or two daily trains while the rest would go through without stopping. It would probably be commuter focused.

 

[steveintoronto]

A stop in Pontypool makes sense for the same reason as stops in Gananoque or Sharbot Lake. It might get one or two daily trains while the rest would go through without stopping. It would probably be commuter focused.

It would have to be limited only, as with many of the other small locales. I'd foresee one local stopping train each way in the morning and evening.

There's only thing I can remember about Pontypool, albeit I'm sure it's a lovely village, but I've cycled past it many times coming back to Toronto from Peterborough, and here's all I can remember:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e6/3e/4e/e63e4e9da343dfc45bb11ad7230f4421.jpg

Believe it or not, I'm not the only one to remember it as being "Pontypool"...it's being restored as a "tourist attraction".
https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Attracti...ol_Grain_Elevator-Kawartha_Lakes_Ontario.html

But that ties in with a stopping train each direction in the morning and evening. It will allow tourists (and distance cyclists like myself and others) to keep Kawartha Region (and to the east) tourism alive, as well as allow commuters to live there. Ostensibly HFR will share the RoW section now leased to Trans-Canada Trail as a "Rail with Trail", further promoting the use of the trail by being accessible for both starting and finishing at a station.

Rails with trails (RWT) are a small subset of rail trails in which a railway right-of-way remains in use by trains yet also has a parallel recreational trail. Hundreds of kilometers of RWTs exist in Canada, Europe, the United States, and Western Australia.[1]
[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rails_with_trails

 

[crs1026]

Call me the curmudgeon, but a stop in Pontypool is as dumb as a box of rocks (limestone or granite, take your pick, I clearly can't tell 'em apart).

There is good reason for a stop in north Durham Region, to do what Oshawa does now on the Lakeshore line. I would have suggested Myrtle, because it is on a main north south road, and closest to actual population in Brooklin. But I would have nodded to Burketon, Raglan, or Claremont.

The nomination of Pontypool is just good amusing local politics, but if VIA doesn't manage expectations better we will end up with a local train service stopping everywhere and carrying nobody. Other local councils will clamour for Tweed, Indian River, Norwood, and Havelock soon.... and these actually have a population base that might offer some revenue.

All of this is somewhat similar to Moose Rail, where the train is wanted to drive development that hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately, there are a couple of impediments - the small problem of the Northumberland Forest and the Greenbelt, to start with. That part of Ontario is undeveloped for a reason, and needs to stay that way.
I know the Tower of Pontypool well. It's a great place to photograph the Havelock freight train, but as Mr Scott told the Captain a few times, there's no life down the line there.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Well Paul, Metrolinx deems otherwise:

[...]

[...]

[...]

All above from PDF Pg 6, 105 and 109
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/studies/Peterborough_Rail_Study.pdf

Since this study was done seven years ago, and prior to the proposal now for a much faster electric line to Toronto and Ottawa, and increased development in the area, the projected passenger numbers will increase.

 

[MisterF]

Call me the curmudgeon, but a stop in Pontypool is as dumb as a box of rocks (limestone or granite, take your pick, I clearly can't tell 'em apart).

There is good reason for a stop in north Durham Region, to do what Oshawa does now on the Lakeshore line. I would have suggested Myrtle, because it is on a main north south road, and closest to actual population in Brooklin. But I would have nodded to Burketon, Raglan, or Claremont.

The nomination of Pontypool is just good amusing local politics, but if VIA doesn't manage expectations better we will end up with a local train service stopping everywhere and carrying nobody. Other local councils will clamour for Tweed, Indian River, Norwood, and Havelock soon.... and these actually have a population base that might offer some revenue.

All of this is somewhat similar to Moose Rail, where the train is wanted to drive development that hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately, there are a couple of impediments - the small problem of the Northumberland Forest and the Greenbelt, to start with. That part of Ontario is undeveloped for a reason, and needs to stay that way.
I know the Tower of Pontypool well. It's a great place to photograph the Havelock freight train, but as Mr Scott told the Captain a few times, there's no life down the line there.

- Paul

You may be getting the Northumberland Forest mixed up with the Ganaraska Forest or the Durham East Forest. Pontypool isn't within any of them but it is part of the Oak Ridges Moraine. It's not on the Canadian Shield either. The ORM Plan designates it as a hamlet and allows it to grow by a small amount. That said, it'll never be a large urban area by any means.

A stop in a village like Pontypool wouldn't be to drive development. It would be to serve a large, mostly rural area with tens of thousands of people. And it's been said dozens of times on this forum, but it's worth repeating: not every train stops at every station. A Pontypool station would be irrelevant to the express trains going through it.

The Peterborough GO bus stops at the 115/35 interchange park & ride 11 times a day each direction, so clearly there's demand to serve this area.

 

[steveintoronto]

The Peterborough GO bus stops at the 115/35 interchange park & ride 11 times a day each direction, so clearly there's demand to serve this area.

And there has been historically, with even less of a catchment area. The Havelock VIA line had a stop there, as has every passenger route through there, albeit some expresses may have not stopped in the past. There's been a number of Pontypool stations over the years.

Since Lindsay is no longer served by rail, Pontypool would be the only passenger service in the City of Kawartha Lakes. It would make sense for GO Transit to connect Lindsay to Pontypool by bus, and continue to Oshawa, even before HFR is instituted on that line. Once instituted, GO bus alone would feed substantial traffic.

Edit to Add: I see Paul Langan has his ballast in a bag again (he never did explain his complete hypocrisy on HSR through Peterborough)

[...]
Of course the love of rail history and obscure railway stations should not distract us from the fundamental question; How many places will the VIA Rail proposed slow speed service stop at?

Originally Perth Ontario was going to be a stop on the line but lately only Tweed, Peterborough, Sharbot Lakes and Smith Falls are mentioned in the media as stops on the line.
[...]

http://www.highspeedrailcanada.com/2017/08/pontypool-ontario-next-stop-for-via.html

For someone who claims to be up on these matters, Mr Langan has hit the buffers, and his couplers come unstuck. You see Paul, with *frequent trains* you have the option to have a limited number do the local stops, and the others run express...just as is done in many nations...even in Canada in spots. "Port Hope" ring a bell? Last time I checked (which admittedly was a while back) only a couple of trains a day stop there. The rest blast through.

 

[crs1026]

That study made the case for a GO train from Peterboro to Toronto. No dispute that the commuter ridership was once there, and would probably come back, on a weekday peak service basis. If all that Peterboro aka Pontypool wants is a GO train, fine. But that's a different proposition than stopping just one HFR train a day in, say, Gananoque and another train a day in Trenton Jct.

Even one GO train will require track capacity. VIA's capital spend is not that great, which leaves a question about how much capacity there will be. Squeeze even one GO train in between notionally hourly eastbound afternoon HFR trains, with hourly westbound HFR trains to meet..... that's an operational challenge. Meets consume time, and VIA is promising to reduce trip duration.

Langan's question is a good one - how many stops and meets can VIA add before diluting its promised performance?

- Paul

PS - The Peterboro study indicated a certain volume of commuter demand but also indicated that population growth will be low along the Havelock Sub. Slim prospects.

 

[steveintoronto]

Langan's question is a good one - how many stops and meets can VIA add before diluting its promised performance?

No it isn't, because Langan can't think in modern terms if it doesn't serve his ulterior purpose: To promote a pie-in-the-sky HSR to the detriment of everything else. He's a one-trick pony, and lame at that.

How is it possible that so many other nations do this, as shown so many times in this string, and yet some Canadians promote HSR and yet haven't a clue how Japan, Germany and many other nations do it? Is it blindness or just plain obstinance?

VIA and GO do it on single track with fifties signalling and train control in some spots as it is. The K/W corridor has the potential, even it's stymied by the freight section at Silver. Imagine what they could do with passing loops, electric propulsion, CBTC and a will to learn from others? Sorry, forgot about that last bit. Only in Canada you say? Pity...

Metrolinx saw basis running on an old track with severe speed limits and track warrants. I'd point out the difference with state of the art HFR, but the point would be lost...

As stated by at least one very qualified railway analyst in this string, the 'time loss' of a modern electric consist for each station stop is about 5 minutes (the spec is less, but I'll state 5. Crossrail is planning 50 seconds max dwell time, as the Paris RER already does ). To lose following headway of an hour, that would be 12 non-express stops. To not lose oncoming headway, it would be necessary to use passing loops. But since you have 12 (or more) non-express stops, with a passing loop at each, (the local train sits in the loop letting passengers on/off) and CBTC, it's not a problem. The express blows by if need be.

But the concept for some is impossible to grasp...it's being done in many nations at this time. But of course, they are *advanced* nations...

 

[MisterF]

And there has been historically, with even less of a catchment area. The Havelock VIA line had a stop there, as has every passenger route through there, albeit some expresses may have not stopped in the past. There's been a number of Pontypool stations over the years.

Since Lindsay is no longer served by rail, Pontypool would be the only passenger service in the City of Kawartha Lakes. It would make sense for GO Transit to connect Lindsay to Pontypool by bus, and continue to Oshawa, even before HFR is instituted on that line. Once instituted, GO bus alone would feed substantial traffic.

Edit to Add: I see Paul Langan has his ballast in a bag again (he never did explain his complete hypocrisy on HSR through Peterborough)

http://www.highspeedrailcanada.com/2017/08/pontypool-ontario-next-stop-for-via.html

For someone who claims to be up on these matters, Mr Langan has hit the buffers, and his couplers come unstuck. You see Paul, with *frequent trains* you have the option to have a limited number do the local stops, and the others run express...just as is done in many nations...even in Canada in spots. "Port Hope" ring a bell? Last time I checked (which admittedly was a while back) only a couple of trains a day stop there. The rest blast through.

Yeah very few trains stop in Port Hope, although they do slow down quite a bit on that trestle. In Cobourg they blow through the station at 150 km/h.

That study made the case for a GO train from Peterboro to Toronto. No dispute that the commuter ridership was once there, and would probably come back, on a weekday peak service basis. If all that Peterboro aka Pontypool wants is a GO train, fine. But that's a different proposition than stopping just one HFR train a day in, say, Gananoque and another train a day in Trenton Jct.

Even one GO train will require track capacity. VIA's capital spend is not that great, which leaves a question about how much capacity there will be. Squeeze even one GO train in between notionally hourly eastbound afternoon HFR trains, with hourly westbound HFR trains to meet..... that's an operational challenge. Meets consume time, and VIA is promising to reduce trip duration.

Langan's question is a good one - how many stops and meets can VIA add before diluting its promised performance?

- Paul

PS - The Peterboro study indicated a certain volume of commuter demand but also indicated that population growth will be low along the Havelock Sub. Slim prospects.

Who said anything about GO trains? The Peterborough study from 2010 is a completely different beast from the Via HFR proposal. Via could easily operate the commuter-oriented trains themselves, as they already do in towns all over southern Ontario.

 

[steveintoronto]

Yeah very few trains stop in Port Hope, although they do slow down quite a bit on that trestle. In Cobourg they blow through the station at 150 km/h.

I checked the schedule for Port Hope for the Toronto/Kingston/Montreal trains, There's just the milk run in and one out once a day. At one point, Port Hope got *no trains at all* a couple of decades back. I used to use PH as a drop off point to cycle up to Garden Hill, back in the days when they let you load and unload your own machine from the baggage car. Then they started to insist their 'monkeys' do it. That was the end of that, the apes jammed pedals into spokes, didn't give a shid.

Whatever, I cherish the days of being able to take a quality distance machine on a train again. I do it all the time with GO, one of the huge benefits of GO. VIA claims their new trainset order will have bike storage areas in each coach, self load and lock, just like they have on some Amtrak and most European trains. (Most require booking a space, which is fine by me)

Edit to Add: I'd posted reference to this prior, and others posted ICE and Japan Railways single track bi-directional mixed local and express systems. This isn't rocket science: (If it works for HSR, not to mention any names of proponents, then it works for HFR running almost hourly service)

September 25, 2015
Spain to open first single-track high-speed line
Written by Fernando Puente



THE Spanish Ministry of Public Works and Transport confirmed this week that the 162.7km Valladolid - Palencia - León high-speed line will be officially inaugurated on September 29.

Renfe published the timetable for the route on September 24, revealing that the fastest services will link León and Madrid in 2h 6min, a 44-minute improvement compared with the current journey time.

Tickets have also gone on sale with fares starting at around €20, and are expected to remain at that level for the initial three months, as the line will initially operate at with trains running at a maximum speed of 200km/h because ETCS has not yet been commissioned.

A build-maintain contract to equip the Valladolid - León and the Valladolid - Burgos high-speed lines with ETCS Level 2 was awarded to an Alstom-Bombardier-Indra consortium in March 2014, with a delivery time of 24 months. When ETCS is commissioned, the maximum speed will rise to 300km/h.

This will be the first of several high-speed lines in Spain which will open with only a single track installed - despite being designed and built for double track - in a bid to minimise construction and maintenance costs on those routes where demand will be well below capacity.

The line is double track between Valladolid, Venta de Baños and the outskirts of Palencia, but around half of the 110km stretch from Palencia to León will be single track.

The line will extend the Spanish high capacity network further to the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula from its current terminus in Valladolid, and will provide shorter travel times not only from Madrid to Palencia and León, but also to destinations in Asturias currently served by variable-gauge Alvia trains, which will use the new line.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-open-first-single-track-high-speed-line.html

 

[kEiThZ]

Langan's question is a good one - how many stops and meets can VIA add before diluting its promised performance?

I don't agree with some of Lanagan's views. But his advocacy is valuable and this question in particular is one I keep asking too.

But I think MisterF is right. Them run a few milk runs to appease these towns. And keep the express services on a far more frequent schedule.

 

[44 North]

https://kawarthanow.com/2017/08/17/kawartha-lakes-via-rail/

Pontypool...spent a month there one night lol. No, just wanted to use that joke. I'm partial to the area from driving through many times, and that it's Neil Young's general stomping ground. Am loving the idea of adding milk run stations, with Havelock being another good choice imo. Just simple bare-bones stations not unlike what existed decades ago. Much of our older population is aging, and don't want/can't drive on major highways to things like shows or hospital appts. And many hate buses for reasons like the stench of chemical cleaners being nausea-inducing.

Haven't been following this too close, but will there be express and local service with the proposal? Or is it merely forum guesses?

 

[steveintoronto]

Haven't been following this too close, but will there be express and local service with the proposal? Or is it merely forum guesses?

If HFR is built along the 'Havelock' alignment, it's almost a given.

HFR would be Metrolinx' dream come true for providing commuter service on at least the Peterborough to Toronto section:
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/studies/Peterborough_Rail_Study.pdf