VIA Rail

[dowlingm]

kingston in the grand scheme of this HFR plan means very little. They should be getting Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto FIRMLY on board with irrevocable cash to contribute until the completion of the project

It would make sense *if* the province was willing to consider it as a population growth centre. But that would probably also drive an expansion of Kingston Airport and the arrival of Porter!

 

[cplchanb]

It would make sense *if* the province was willing to consider it as a population growth centre. But that would probably also drive an expansion of Kingston Airport and the arrival of Porter!

I'm curious though, what does Kingston contribute or has that would enable them to be a growth centre? Its not like the GTA with the industry or Windsor being close to the US.
What economic, industrial, or business incentive is there for Kingston to be listed as a growth spot?

 

[steveintoronto]

Whether you think it is enough is your opinion

It's not my opinion. How many times does it have to be referenced and quoted? It's the unanimous opinion as expressed by vote and interviews of the Kingston Council and Mayor. It's the unanimous opinion as expressed by vote and announcement by every adjacent and affected Ward along the proposed route.

Since you're expressing *your* opinion, then produce even one municipality or ward directly affected that's against it.

But that would probably also drive an expansion of Kingston Airport and the arrival of Porter!

And?

As for Mayor Paterson, I wasn't privy to the nature of the briefing VIA gave him. All I know is that the guy drew a straight line from Kingston to Ottawa. I'd love to see trains use a corridor from Kingston to Smiths Falls rather than use the Brockville route - I just don't see anyone planning to build such a thing.

Schematics do that. He also drew straight arrows to Montreal and Toronto.

Here yet again, is Paterson's statement, since you insist on claiming it's my opinion:

[...]
However, with Kingston as a regional rail hub, trains would start and end here, meaning far more convenient train schedules. For example, if you are in Kingston, you could catch an early morning train to Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal and then catch an evening train back. If you are in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal, the same options of early morning and late evening trains would be available. Whether coming into Kingston or leaving, travel options by train would be significantly better.

In order for VIA Rail’s proposed rail service expansion to move forward, federal government funding will be required. The expansion of convenient rail travel for Kingston and Eastern Ontario will provide a viable alternative to travelling by car, which makes sense both economically and environmentally. And so I am happy to add my voice to the many other municipal leaders across Eastern Ontario trying to make this new rail service a reality.[...]

https://mayorpaterson.com/2017/07/

Feel absolutely free to post any representative's differing opinion from the overwhelming majority supporting this.

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm curious though, what does Kingston contribute or has that would enable them to be a growth centre? Its not like the GTA with the industry or Windsor being close to the US.
What economic, industrial, or business incentive is there for Kingston to be listed as a growth spot?

Kingston is a geographical and historical hub city. And that is what the presented plan by VIA for Kingston embodies. Some don't like VIA's HFR proposal and grasp for anything they can to diss it.

As to "Growth Area". Kingston is of course outside the Places to Grow Act, but none-the-less, although four years dated, this makes the case for Kingston having more emphasis on being an originating and terminating passenger rail hub:

Kingston's suburbs growing
By Ian MacAlpine, Kingston Whig-Standard

Monday, September 9, 2013 7:24:50 EDT PM
[...]
Exurbs are low-density rural areas in which more than half the residents commute to the central core of the city; auto suburbs see all residents commute with a vehicle to work; and transit suburbs have a high percentage of residents commute by public transit.

Kingston is part of that growth trend to the auto suburbs.

“In Kingston, the core neighbourhoods only grew by 600 people. That’s good that it grew at all. Most small cities don’t. But it’s only 3% of the total regional growth. Over the last five years, the Kingston region grew by 7,200 people — 97% of that was in exurban and suburban neighbourhoods. That’s not terribly sustainable.”

The study was based on population growth between 2006 and 2011.

The average in Canada for exurbs is 8%, but Gordon’s research shows the Kingston area’s rate is 23% or 37,000 people, well above the national average.

Gordon said that Kingston’s exurban rate is high because, like many of the smaller metropolitan areas in Canada, it is easier for people to commute with their vehicles in and out of the active core of the city.

For people who live in metropolitan areas, about 11%, live in the transit suburbs. Such cities, like Toronto, offer a large transit system to serve the commuters.

Gordon said there are ways for Kingston to grow its population in the inner active core area, and he sees some projects on the horizon.

“I’m very impressed (that) in a place like Kingston there’s development in the Williamsville corridor,” he said. “I think that’s a great suggestion and there should be more of that. The cleanups of the brownfield sites on the Cataraqui Bay, an excellent idea.”

He also said more development for housing at Canadian Forces Base Kingston would be beneficial because military staff living on the base could walk or cycle to work. [...]

http://www.thewhig.com/2013/09/09/kingstons-suburbs-growing

What this appears to indicate is not just VIA's role in helping create a rail hub for Kingston, but the Province and City also contributing to that. More on that later.

 

[dowlingm]

I'm curious though, what does Kingston contribute or has that would enable them to be a growth centre? Its not like the GTA with the industry or Windsor being close to the US.
What economic, industrial, or business incentive is there for Kingston to be listed as a growth spot?

Queens is a pretty good institutional base. Province could choose to relocate some govt stuff there if it wanted. The real question is whether the city government who steveintoronto sees as the be all and end all are ready for the pushback from voters who want to keep Kingston sleepy.
http://www.thewhig.com/2013/04/18/proposed-development-worries-neighbours

 

[crs1026]

Aside from already having a good university and hospital, and a bunch of services, and being very centrally located to Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto - Kingston is the city that Ontari needs to expand most. It is sited on Canadian Shield. Growth in any other Ontario city means surrendering agricultural land. For the life of me, I can't understand why it isn't being tripled in size.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Aside from already having a good university and hospital, and a bunch of services, and being very centrally located to Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto - Kingston is the city that Ontari needs to expand most. It is sited on Canadian Shield. Growth in any other Ontario city means surrendering agricultural land. For the life of me, I can't understand why it isn't being tripled in size.

- Paul

It is growing far faster than the average Cdn city, Whether or not the quality of life is lost doing that is a good question. Many of the towns between TO and Kingston seem to have handled it as well as possible (Port Hope, Cobourg, etc). The Province should start including centres like this as part of Places to Grow. Kingston still has a lot of abandoned v. still productive farm land that could be used, let alone a number of brownfield sites. I did some Googling to other cities where VIA is touted to play a role in local transit, and Halifax came up. It is larger....but here's the big difference: Kingston is growing fast as it is, Halifax is shrinking. I think Kingston really does represent a case study for growing regional rail and/or with LRT to create a greater whole.

The real question is whether the city government who steveintoronto sees as the be all

You have a very strange way, to be very diplomatic, of convoluting reference and example.

Kingston's Council was *unanimous* in their vote on the motion. If you have a problem with that, then feel absolutely free to run for the Council or Mayor of Kingston. The odd letter to the newspaper because the mismatching Argyle socks on the third day of the declension of the fifth element means nothing when it comes to the overwhelming representation of the whole.

You still haven't provided anything beyond the inevitable crank letter to the editor to buttress *your opinion* against that of the councils of every region affected.

 

[nfitz]

Since there aren't currently any trains in the morning or evening to serve Kingston to Toronto, or Montreal or Ottawa, it's a tad moot, wouldn't you say?

Kingston to Toronto? There was not long ago, and there was when I used to take it occasionally in the 1980s and early 1990s, and even when I moved to Kingston in 1970. Always seemed used enough, can't imagine why it wouldn't be there. Very busy to some former VIA services I took, like Sherbrooke, and Trois-Rivieres. (Mind you old CN service to St-Hilaire was always a big packed train when I took it ... and CN killed that in the 1980s (though now 5 trains in rush hour instead of 1, now that AMT/RMT resurrected it, this century).

I'm not sure why I keep looking up these things, but ...

Yeah, here it is. Departs Kingston, weekdays at 5:32 AM, arrives Toronto 8:25 AM, stopping everywhere. Just as it has done for probably well over 150 years.

Looking back to 1988. Actually, it's improved. Back then, it ran later leaving Kingston at 7 AM, not arriving until almost 10 AM. If you had to be in first thing in Toronto (LOL, 7:30!), you took the sleeper that left Kingston at 3:42 AM and took almost 4 hours!!! (there's also an express train that leave Kingston at 7:30 AM arriving about 10 AM - back in 1988, you had to wait until almost 10 AM for an express.

Coming back, in 1988, it left Toronto at 9 pm, arriving at 23:45. But now it leaves 5:40 PM arriving Kinston 8:11 pm - wow, that's faster - but still 9 stations. But wait, there's now a SECOND one, leaving Toronto at 18:40, arriving Kingston at 9:13, and then going all the way to Ottawa; that's newish. The old last train from Kingston used to leave about 8 pm.

So Kingston to Toronto (commuting to Toronto) is well served. Kingston to Montreal was never possible as long as I remember (nor Ottawa). Kingston to Ottawa, the first train used to leave at 10 AM arriving noon. Now it's about 9AM arriving 11:30 - so a bit earlier, but slower, and a stop in Fallowfield.

Interestingly you can now arrive in Kingston from Toronto at 9:07 AM, from Ottawa at 7:30 AM (and 9:10 AM!) and from Montreal at 9:21 AM, compared to 9:50 AM, 9:40, and 10:04 AM, making those commutes possible too, if you can start a bit later.

But back to "there aren't currently any trains in the morning or evening to serve Kingston to Toronto, or Montreal or Ottawa" What are you talking about? Toronto-Kingston is well served, the other two never were, and the reverse commute is now possible!

 

[steveintoronto]

What are you talking about?

My omission in this particular post of stating "allowing an all-day stay" in Toronto. Or arriving mid-day in Toronto and leaving after an event in the evening to return to Kingston.

Been discussed in appropriate detail above, including exact times of departure and return. That's "what I'm talking about", and so are those exactly quoted.

What I will add is that the more I think about it, if Kingston does gain a "hub status" for rail journeys, it works two ways. Kingston and the Province must also be willing to invest in maximizing the effect of this, since the cost of roads will be reduced and other attendant costs of vehicles reduced, and Kingston can plan for a more modern and beneficial approach to expansion.

Paul has an excellent point:

For the life of me, I can't understand why it isn't being tripled in size.

The Province has a very real role to play in shepherding this, and I don't mean via the OMB. Guelph, of an almost identical population, is eating up prime farmland and *still* sprawling (it's their official policy still)(Guelph is far behind the Places to Grow targets set for her for density) at an alarming rate. Kingston, however, is a geographical regional hub, Guelph certainly isn't one, being eclipsed by K/W and other proximous conurbations of size.

I see the wisdom of Ontario stepping up to the plate to be part of a consortium to build the Ontario leg of HFR, in lieu of pursuing the HSR fantasy. It will satisfy their claim of intent to provide HSR, it will help get HFR up and running sooner, and it might even have a Metrolinx aspect to operating the line physically, even as VIA run the service. From Ottawa to Montreal, and to Quebec City it might be apt for a different albeit related consortium to build, including participation of Quebec. Again, VIA would run the service as a contiguous route. It might even be a spun-off division of VIA to do this, and with dedicated electric propulsion, no necessity to order locos as hybrids. The new coach stock would be compatible with the dedicated electric or diesel locos that must be ordered for VIA's fleet renewal.

Edit to Add: Kingston is going to have to make a case for "hub status" beyond what VIA are promoting, and since my last post on Kingston's blazing population growth, which was dated four years ago, the latest figures have slowed down.
http://www.thewhig.com/2017/02/10/areas-population-growth-rate-lags
As to why is at least partly to do with the changes in the Census methodology and an aging demographic in Kingston, something Kingston *is* addressing.

From Investment Ontario's website:

Ontario cities recognized as FDi Cities of the Future

Several Ontario cities were once again featured prominently in the 2017/2018 American Cities of the Future report. FDi, a division of Financial Times Limited, ranked 421 locations across North and South America in five categories: economic potential, business friendliness, human capital and lifestyle, cost-effectiveness and connectivity.

This year, Canadian cities, many in Ontario, dominated the business friendliness category, proving that the province has many opportunities for new and established businesses.

The Ontario cities named in the 2017/2018 report across all categories include Toronto, Mississauga, Ottawa, Brampton, London, Hamilton, Oakville, Markham, Guelph, Waterloo, Cambridge, Windsor, Burlington, Niagara Falls, Brantford, Sarnia, Sudbury, Chatham-Kent, Kingston and Pickering.

[...]

Kingston: A great place to live and learn. A top choice for investment
The 2017/2018 FDi report ranks Kingston sixth in human capital and lifestyle and placed first for Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) Strategy among small cities. This vibrant urban hub of 161,000, located in Eastern Ontario and nestled on the shores of Lake Ontario, offers a strategic geographic location central to major urban centres, averaging a short 2.5-hour drive to Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Syracuse, New York. Kingston's per capita R&D outpaces many larger cities. In addition, the city offers state-of-the-art infrastructure, a diverse workforce, and a high concentration of R&D capabilities, including chemical technologies housed at Innovation Park. Queen's University, the Royal Military College of Canada and St. Lawrence College, all world-class post-secondary institutions, provide start-ups and existing companies with an extraordinary talent pool of 30,000 bright students, as well as post-docs and faculty.

Kingston is a smart, livable, 21st-century city. This year we attracted one of the largest foreign direct investment projects in Canada, a showcase of our commitment to targeting key industry sectors and creating new employment opportunities for the talented, innovative and ambitious people who call Kingston home.
– Bryan Paterson, Mayor of Kingston

https://www.investinontario.com/spotlights/ontario-cities-recognized-fdi-cities-future

 

[kEiThZ]

Aside from already having a good university and hospital, and a bunch of services, and being very centrally located to Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto - Kingston is the city that Ontari needs to expand most. It is sited on Canadian Shield. Growth in any other Ontario city means surrendering agricultural land. For the life of me, I can't understand why it isn't being tripled in size.

- Paul

This. Sooooo this.

And it'd be sooooo easy to grow Kingston. They literally need nothing more than a better rail connection to Toronto and Ottawa and transit investment. They could make it the most transit friendly community in Ontario.

 

[steveintoronto]

Kawartha Lakes also in discussions on new VIA Rail passenger service

Proposed rail line from Toronto to Quebec City already includes stop in Peterborough
By kawarthaNOW -
Published August 17, 2017


VIA Rail executives met with Eastern Ontario Mayors and Wardens in Ottawa about the proposed new rail service between Toronto and Quebec City. Stops are already proposed in Peterborough, Tweed, Sharbot Lake, and Smiths Falls and the City of Kawartha Lakes would like to see a stop in Pontypool. (Photo: City of Kawartha Lakes)

Discussions are continuing on the proposed VIA Rail line that would run between Toronto and Quebec City with stops in Peterborough and potentially Kawartha Lakes.

Earlier this week, City of Kawartha Lakes Mayor Andy Letham and CAO Ron Taylor met with VIA Rail executives in Ottawa, alongside Mayors and Wardens from Eastern Ontario municipalities, to continue discussions on the expansion.

The proposal is to rebuild existing train tracks to create a high-frequency commuter route through the southern portion of Kawartha Lakes. City officials have expressed interest in having a stop in Pontypool on the way to Peterborough.

“I’m pleased that discussions are moving along and that Kawartha Lakes is continuing to advocate to be on the map for the new route,” says Mayor Letham. “It’s essential that we allow more opportunities for our workforce to be connected to large urban areas like Toronto and Ottawa. It would also enhance our ability to draw tourists from these urban centres and allow our community easier access to medical appointments in the GTA.”

In November 2016, VIA Rail President and CEO Yves Desjardins-Siciliano announced the plan for a new passenger train service between Toronto and Quebec City, with a stop in Peterborough, at a Greater Peterborough Chamber of Commerce lunch.

The plan is part of proposed $4 billion expansion for high-frequency rail in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor.

The plan, still in development, has already proposed stops in Peterborough, Tweed, Sharbot Lake, and Smiths Falls in Central and Eastern Ontario.

If ultimately approved by the federal govermment, the plan could see the new rail service in place by 2020-21.

https://kawarthanow.com/2017/08/17/kawartha-lakes-via-rail/

 

[crs1026]

Sure would like to know what the documents in the glossy handout folders on the table in that photo consist of.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Aside from already having a good university and hospital, and a bunch of services, and being very centrally located to Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto - Kingston is the city that Ontari needs to expand most. It is sited on Canadian Shield. Growth in any other Ontario city means surrendering agricultural land.

Kingston is not on the Canadian Shield - it's called the Limestone City! The shield, around that area at least is metamorphic rock, not sedimentary (like limestone); and also igneous further down.

This is evidenced by the old limestone quarries around town (there were bigger ones at Division near Dalton, Bath Rd, near Bayridge Drive. - but old much smaller ones - all the limestone you see in the old buildings is local.

There's a lot of good agricultural land in Kingston, though you have other issues. There's spots where you see alvars - a great place to play as a kid, but not for farming of course. But you can plainly see the limestone at your feet.

There are outcrops, I recall seeing them in Barriefield and to the east, and even where the 401 crosses the Cataraqui at Kingston Mills. I don't recall seeing any to the west, or even to the north for a distance.

Just found this online - http://www.geoeng.ca/GeoEngCentre_fieldtrip2013_fullDescription[1].pdf if anyone is really interest.

LOL, they start at the Barriefield outcrop on Highway 2. Is there any Queens Civil/Geo student who hasn't been there (I was on the friends and family plan ... I seem to remember holding the rod for people during my alleged March break).

Here's the key figure. All that light blue - is limestone (mostly with some overburden).

 

[Allandale25]

Latest on the Churchill line situation.

Federal regulator will probe Omnitrax

 

[steveintoronto]

Latest on the Churchill line situation.

Excellent heads up, Allandale.

Can't say I'm surprised by this, it makes legal and logical sense for the Feds to use the courts to find resolution. More on that as more details emerge.

Federal regulator will probe Omnitrax
By: Dylan Robertson
Posted: 08/17/2017 5:03 PM | Comments: 10

OTTAWA — The federal transport regulator is probing whether Omnitrax has broken the law by abandoning service along the railway to Churchill for 12 weeks, after Free Press readers complained to the agency.

The Canadian Transportation Agency said on Thursday it's assigned a designated enforcement officer to investigate a dozen complaints.

On July 18, Omnitrax said it wouldn’t pay an estimated $20 million to $60 million to repair flooding damage along the line because it was 'not economically viable.'

"To date, 12 people have gotten in touch with the CTA regarding the lack of service on the Hudson Bay Railway line," wrote spokesman Tim Hillier.

That's little comfort to Susan Prentice, one of at least three Free Press readers who say they've complained to the CTA but haven't heard anything in the past week.

"I'm a citizen of Manitoba, and I know that Churchill plays a very important role in our province," said Prentice, who lives in Winnipeg. "The economic future of Churchill is interdependent on the success of the rail line."

On July 18, Omnitrax said it wouldn’t pay an estimated $20 million to $60 million to repair flooding damage along the line because it was "not economically viable." The federal government has since insisted Omnitrax is obliged under a 2008 funding contract to keep the rail line running.

Earlier this month, transportation lawyers told the Free Press Omnitrax could be legally compelled to restore service to Churchill under federal laws that prohibit companies from abandoning train lines, regardless of what contracts they enter.

The CTA prescribes "reasonable" time limits to repair from catastrophic damage, after which companies can be fined for not keeping the line running. In February, the regulator ruled that "a railway company cannot permanently relieve itself of its statutory obligations by indirect means by deciding not to rehabilitate a railway line."

The regulator said it takes 20 to 85 business days to probe a dispute, with cases categorized on a scale of four processes depending on how compliant the company seems.

But the CTA then told the Free Press it can't open investigations until citizens or businesses file complaints.

"I thought that was bureaucratic irrationality at its height," said Prentice. "I cannot see how any investigation will fail to find that Omnitrax has broken the terms of [the law.]"

She blames the 12-week debacle on Ottawa selling the railway to a private company in 1997 and says it’s time the government takes it over from private hands.

Prentice says Omnitrax only answers to shareholders, while federal and provincial finger-pointing shows "a failure of political will" at both levels.

Premier Brian Pallister was asked Thursday whether he was growing impatient with the lack of progress in restoring rail service to the northern port.

"We’ve communicated our impatience at various levels and we’ll continue to do so," he said.

Pallister said he recognizes that the federal government has "a challenge" in dealing with Omnitrax.

The company received a more precise damage-cost estimate on Aug. 4 through an AECOM Canada engineering assessment. The company said it’s presenting the report to Transport Canada next week, but won't say when it will publicly release more information.

"We have encouraged them to pursue progress on this file in numerous ways," Pallister said.

While Ottawa has offered food subsidies to the northern community and helped out with tourism issues, it could be doing more, the premier said.

"The ball is, to some degree, in the federal government’s court. And again I would reiterate it’s really important that we understand what the federal government’s intentions are as to the port."

Prentice, a sociology professor at the University of Manitoba, says that illustrates the problem.

"This is a situation that as sociologists, we explain as a diffusion of responsibilities."

-- With files from Larry Kusch

dylan.robertson@freepress.mb.ca

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/federal-regulator-will-probe-omnitrax-440949073.html

I shouldn't project this until getting more facts, but it would not surprise me in the least if the Feds now move for an immediate court ruling, or use emergency powers extant under a number of Acts (not just Railway) to initiate repairs to restore what is an obvious breach of the Transportation Act.

I'll dig later today on that. I get the feeling there's been a game plan being played all along on this...(Edit to Add: Since the FedLibs gained office. Harper had pretty well cuckolded the virility when the Wheat Board was disbanded)