VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

Just to disprove the frequent claim that "VIA trains are always late":

Source: https://asm.transitdocs.com/

 

[aquateam]

Just to disprove the frequent claim that "VIA trains are always late":
Source: https://asm.transitdocs.com/

Zooming in:

Personally, I frequently travel Toronto-Montreal and I've learned to automatically pad 30 minutes to the arrival time. 3 out of 3 of my last trips were delayed by that much. The worst delay I've had is 3 hours... the train went on the wrong track and had to wait before it could back up in Union station and change tracks. These are their official statistics:

According to this, the on-time performance for Toronto-Vancouver was 24%.

 

[Urban Sky]

Zooming in:

As you can see in my screenshot, trains 52 and 62 (both trains are operated jointly between Toronto and Brockville, therefore a green "62" automatically translates into a green "52") were still marked as "on time" when I grabbed and posted it.

Personally, I frequently travel Toronto-Montreal and I've learned to automatically pad 30 minutes to the arrival time. 3 out of 3 of my last trips were delayed by that much. The worst delay I've had is 3 hours... the train went on the wrong track and had to wait before it could back up in Union station and change tracks. These are their official statistics:

Debunking a claim ("VIA trains are ALWAYS LATE") does not equal making a claim of the exact opposite ("VIA trains are ALWAYS ON TIME"). Everyone who uses VIA trains frequently (and trust me: I do) knows that such a claim would be grossly incorrect...

PS: VIA's cut-off point for delays on it's Toronto-Montreal and Toronto-Ottawa services is 15 minutes. Therefore, it was still considered "on-time" when you "corrected" me (even though it now shows 20-22 minutes delayed and therefore no longer "on-time"):

Source: http://www.viarail.ca/en/travel-infos/informations/on-time-performance

 

[cplchanb]

wow our definition of late is so lax....15min is on time for a quick trip on the corridor?
I would give it max 5 min so that will aim to be better than how they currently are performing

 

[Urban Sky]

wow our definition of late is so lax....15min is on time for a quick trip on the corridor?
I would give it max 5 min so that will aim to be better than how they currently are performing

The appropriateness of a cut-off time for any definition of punctuality depends on the distance covered by that particular rail service: there is simply no definition which would simultaneously make sense for a Commuter train (~40 km, e.g. Toronto-Milton or Toronto-Oshawa), Intercity train (~400 km, e.g. Toronto-Windsor or Toronto-Ottawa) or Transcontinental train (~4000 km, e.g. Toronto-Vancouver).

Having spent the first 20 years of my life in Germany, I'm most familiar with the standards there and Deutsche Bahn seems to have one definition with 5 minutes and one with 15 minutes, which in my view suggests that they deem 5 minutes appropriate for Commuter/Regional trains (operated by "DB Regio") and 15 minutes for Long-Distance/InterCity trains (operated by "DB Fernverkehr") and that they only provide the figures for both to ensure comparability and to provide a combined figure ("DB Personenverkehr gesamt"):
http://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte.html

 

[cplchanb]

The appropriateness of a cut-off time for any definition of punctuality depends on the distance covered by that particular rail service: there is simply no definition which would simultaneously make sense for a Commuter train (~40 km, e.g. Toronto-Milton or Toronto-Oshawa), Intercity train (~400 km, e.g. Toronto-Windsor or Toronto-Ottawa) or Transcontinental train (~4000 km, e.g. Toronto-Vancouver).

Having spent the first 20 years of my life in Germany, I'm most familiar with the standards there and Deutsche Bahn seems to have one definition with 5 minutes and one with 15 minutes, which in my view suggests that they deem 5 minutes appropriate for Commuter/Regional trains (operated by "DB Regio") and 15 minutes for Long-Distance/InterCity trains (operated by "DB Fernverkehr") and that they only provide the figures for both to ensure comparability and to provide a combined figure ("DB Personenverkehr gesamt"):
http://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte.html

agreed, for long distance the leeway is more lenient but for sure 15min on short commuter trips is not quite acceptable in the 21st century...

 

[Urban Sky]

agreed, for long distance the leeway is more lenient but for sure 15min on short commuter trips is not quite acceptable in the 21st century...

Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal are comparable in distance to Berlin-Nürnberg and Frankfurt-Hamburg - well beyond what even people in Germany (where quite a significant number of people commute distances equivalent to Montreal-Ottawa or Toronto-London on a daily basis) would consider a commutable distance...

 

[kEiThZ]

...the country where rail ridership has grown faster in the last decade than in any other major European rail nation (and that with minimal HSR):

Have you seen the alternative modes of transport in the UK? There's a reason why rail there is growing faster. And it really doesn't have much to do with privatization. Indeed, privatization really hasn't brought the UK low fares. Compares fares in the UK to elsewhere in Europe. Still expensive.

Most telling to me is that people are now unhappy enough that nationalization is actually on the political agenda. That's incredible.

 

[kEiThZ]

wow our definition of late is so lax....15min is on time for a quick trip on the corridor?
I would give it max 5 min so that will aim to be better than how they currently are performing

Having spent the first 20 years of my life in Germany, I'm most familiar with the standards there and Deutsche Bahn seems to have one definition with 5 minutes and one with 15 minutes, which in my view suggests that they deem 5 minutes appropriate for Commuter/Regional trains (operated by "DB Regio") and 15 minutes for Long-Distance/InterCity trains (operated by "DB Fernverkehr") and that they only provide the figures for both to ensure comparability and to provide a combined figure ("DB Personenverkehr gesamt"):
http://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte.html

The Spanish are less generous than the Germans despite having rock solid on-time performance:

https://www.renfe-sncf.com/rw-en/prepare-your-trip/after-travelling/Pages/compensation-policy.aspx

 

[steveintoronto]

crs1026 said: ↑
What could possibly be more tailored to Kingston than what they have today?

You almost certainly don't have to look nearly as often at VIA's timetables as I do, but I can very easily imagine quite a few ways in which the timetable could be better tailored to local intercity mobility needs of residents in Kingston - and even more so for the residents of the other cities along the line:

View attachment 115726

View attachment 115728
Note: the number to the right of the station name refers to the number of weekday departures at the corresponding station. The timings of trains 50 and 52 have been removed from the count wherever they are identical with trains 60 and 62 as they are operated as one single train at those stations.

No-one could put the case better than the Mayor of Kingston himself:

https://mayorpaterson.com/2017/07/27/proposed-via-rail-expansion-in-eastern-ontario/

 

[crs1026]

What prevents VIA from using Kingston as a "hub" today?

Extend one Montreal-Ottawa train to terminate at Kingston in the late evening. Have it run on to Toronto in the early morning.

Similarly, schedule a 23:10 departure from Toronto for Kingston. Have it run on to Ottawa first thing in the morning. Consolidate the current all-stops Toronto to Kingston train with other runs.

Here's the 1983 schedule for Toronto-London. Compare it to today's.

Mayor Paterson, meet Mr Barnum. Why not ask him to tell you the one about what happens every minute.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

What prevents VIA from using Kingston as a "hub" today?

Slots available from CN.

 

[crs1026]

Slots available from CN.

The issue isn't how many slots CN will give.

The issue will be how many slots can VIA afford, based on the remaining revenue after all the through revenue moves to the other route, and based on what level of subsidy the government will provide given that the through business is no longer being supported with that expenditure.

With the current slots, redistributed with less concern for through business and more for the local service, one could add the early morning and late day service, yes. But can VIA afford them?

London no longer has a 23:00 departure from Toronto either, even though it was always well patronised. I would predict that Kingston ends up with service much like today's London service - morning, noon, early departure end of business, and later after business departures from Toronto. That will offer choices but it will remove the flexibility that today's frequent service gives.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

The issue isn't how many slots CN will give.

The issue will be how many slots can VIA afford, based on the remaining revenue after all the through revenue moves to the other route, and based on what level of subsidy the government will provide given that the through business is no longer being supported with that expenditure.

With the current slots, redistributed with less concern for through business and more for the local service, one could add the early morning and late day service, yes. But can VIA afford them?

London no longer has a 23:00 departure from Toronto either, even though it was always well patronised. I would predict that Kingston ends up with service much like today's London service - morning, noon, early departure end of business, and later after business departures from Toronto. That will offer choices but it will remove the flexibility that today's frequent service gives.

- Paul

I defer to Dejardins-Siciliano:

Via aims for better Kingston service
Kelsey Curtis/For The Whig-Standard

Friday, April 29, 2016 8:04:41 EDT PM

Kingston's current train schedule is determined by end-to-end traffic from Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. By 2019, Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, president and CEO of Via Rail, wants that to change.

"By 2019, trains will be starting out of Kingston or coming into Kingston first thing in the morning for the work day. The last train at the end of the evening will allow people to go into the cities to enjoy the evening events, and get back into town at the end of those events," said Desjardins-Siciliano in a Via Rail update at the Holiday Inn on Friday.

The current early departure from Kingston to Toronto is 5:32 a.m. But for the destinations of Montreal or Ottawa, Kingston departures are not until 9 a.m., which Desjardins-Siciliano calls "useless" for days of business in those cities.

He also noted that with the current schedule, Kingstonians are unable to go to a Toronto Raptors NBA game or a Toronto Maple Leafs NHL game because the last train from Toronto to Kingston is in the middle of the evening.

"The schedule doesn't fit the lifestyle of people in Kingston, which is why most of them still take their car," Desjardins-Siciliano said. "So we'll change that."

Changes will be made by facilitating a "high-frequency network" that will put "end-to-end" traffic routes from Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto on a dedicated track. The current routes that exist on freight railways will be adjusted to tailor the towns in between those cities, with key anchor points being Kingston on the east side of Toronto and London on the west side of Toronto, described Desjardins-Siciliano.

The major enterprise of Via Rail is the Quebec City-to-Windsor corridor, which represents 90 per cent of Via Rail's revenue and passengers. Kingston is recognized as Via Rail's most served station in this corridor, with 12 stops per day during the week in each direction. In 2015, 168,528 passengers departed from Kingston.
[...]

http://www.thewhig.com/2016/04/29/via-aims-for-better-kingston-service

 

[kEiThZ]

What prevents VIA from using Kingston as a "hub" today?

What exactly would be the point? The bulk of demand is through Kingston, not terminating there. Also, a Kingston hub makes no sense given how unreliable VIA is (owing to CN). Connections would be brutal with VIA's current reliability and limited schedule. Far better to continue through and leave people on the train.