VIA Rail

[crs1026]

You can measure the wye at Mimico (I'm not aware of any other one's relevant for the Canadian) on Google Earth, but IIRC it's barely long enough for one locomotive with 6 cars. I believe they wyed at Bayview Jct. (between Hamilton and Aldershot) until that extra mileage (must be something like 60 kilometers per move) became too much to justify...

Edit: Does anyone know when the connection in the southeastern quadrant of Snider Junction got removed (thus necessitating the backing process over the connection in the northwestern quadrant)?

There was never a connecting track in the SE quadrant. The trains have always had to make that back up move.

What some may remember is how the ON trains used to do a 'loop' through Toronto by coming one way on the Bala Sub and going the other up the Newmarket through Barrie and Orillia to Washago. That ended when the Washago- Barrie section was torn up (a truly shortsighted abandonment, IMHO). The old Dutch TEE trains that ONR bought were short enough to wye, but this routing saved time. Originally, they ran all the way from Timmins/Cochrane to Toronto and back up to North Bay each day, so the time saved was needed.

Wyeing the Canadian at Bayview was never a daily ocurrence, rather it was mostly on an exception basis.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Absolutely fascinating, thank you so much!

It's a bit depressing to go chronologically through the schedules, watching the passenger rail network disintegrate the process.

At least one of the early schedules (I've only viewed a couple so far, had to come up for air) have "cut" marked in handwritten pen on route after route. It's like Canada's "Beeching Era" where not only the fat, but healthy meat was cut to the bone leaving only a barebones of a system. There were reasons to do that, doubtless, but none-the-less, an era has been lost. The nostalgia is almost too much to bear at times looking at the schedules and routes.

What some may remember is how the ON trains used to do a 'loop' through Toronto by coming one way on the Bala Sub and going the other up the Newmarket through Barrie and Orillia to Washago. That ended when the Washago- Barrie section was torn up (a truly shortsighted abandonment, IMHO). The old Dutch TEE trains that ONR bought were short enough to wye, but this routing saved time. Originally, they ran all the way from Timmins/Cochrane to Toronto and back up to North Bay each day, so the time saved was needed.

Thank you! I've yet to find the right timetable, only just begun the search and get lost in the memories and possibilities the schedules represent, and a question that continues is whether I remember correctly that some stations were served in one direction only (By the Northlander) until the loop was closed at (Washago?).

I'm also trying to put a time frame on when VIA actually instituted certain runs rather than oversaw per-existing CP and CN ones.

 

[dowlingm]

If some are available, could they be used as non-powered coaches in UPX Nippon Sharyo consists? Very light from memory, and ostensibly able to manage the curve radius of the guideways into Pearson. And obviously multiplex compatible with GO equipment. Or were...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_RTC-85SP/D

can't see Nippon being happy to support such a wonky config. This isn't a similar scenario to VIA trying to splice a coach between two decades out of warranty RDCs, and that didn't work out anyway. It would also be challenging to set up the platform doors correctly for each inbound consist depending on if it had 2 or 4 doors.

 

[steveintoronto]

can't see Nippon being happy to support such a wonky config. This isn't a similar scenario to VIA trying to splice a coach between two decades out of warranty RDCs, and that didn't work out anyway. It would also be challenging to set up the platform doors correctly for each inbound consist depending on if it had 2 or 4 doors.

It was a stretch, but none-the-less, since they were based on the H series TTC subway cars, platform height could be easily accommodated as VIA and other operators do: A panel over the steps is put in place to match platform height.

In the event, digging on the age, those cars are almost fifty years old now. What's not an option for UPX is ordering more Sharyos. When re-engined, (which is on the cards, Metrolinx denial besides)(present variant throwing rods) if a more powerful Cummins were installed, they'd have the power in a 2+1 or 3+1 config to pull a trailer sandwiched in and still meet or exceed performance requirements per scheduling. There are reports of the LRC coaches being ganged in, albeit for deadheading back to the yard from Union. VIA and MX must have some sort of understanding for such movements.

Edit to Add: Off-Topic, but just reading through
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...60909_BoardMtg_2016-2017_Business_Plan_EN.pdf
and not only do Metrolinx plan to run all three car Sharyo trains, but they allude to a fourth one. Best I re-find the section and quote verbatim in the Metrolinx forums.

 

[reaperexpress]

At least one of the early schedules (I've only viewed a couple so far, had to come up for air) have "cut" marked in handwritten pen on route after route. It's like Canada's "Beeching Era" where not only the fat, but healthy meat was cut to the bone leaving only a barebones of a system. There were reasons to do that, doubtless, but none-the-less, an era has been lost. The nostalgia is almost too much to bear at times looking at the schedules and routes.

My thoughts exactly - it does echo the Beeching Cuts, though spread over a longer period of time. Some cuts were fairly reasonable in "trimming the fat" in the age of the automobile, such as the isolated island services (NFL, PEI and Vancouver Island), or the exceedingly long-distance and low-population services such as Montreal-Cochrane. But some of the other cuts just seem short-sighted, like Edmonton-Calgary, Toronto-Chicago or Montréal-Trois Rivières-Québec. If they had been upgraded rather than eliminated, they might be successful routes today.

Another thing I noted in some of those schedules was the prominence of bus connections. Nowadays there are only a more limited group of bus connections shown on VIA schedules (such as Robert Q). Maybe VIA could be the unifying agency to help with navigating the mess of privately-operated intercity bus routes (as we discussed here).

Thanks very much for posting those schedules. I was particularly keen to see 1982's when passenger rail service returned to Fredericton, having lived there from 2004-2007 and remarked on the deteriorated and abandoned rail station. It now will be a liquor store, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Street_railway_station

I am in exactly the same boat. I think it was around 2008 that I did a photoshoot of the dilapidated station (mostly on film, but there should be some digital shots around somewhere). Nowadays it looks to be in great condition - it has been an NB liquor store and meeting space for several years now. It seems that NB Liquor is similar to the LCBO in that they are highly supportive of restoring heritage structures (North Toronto CP Station and the St Lawrence LCBO come to mind).

The Fredericton-St. John-Moncton-Halifax RDC service was a pretty neat way to re-introduce service to Fredericton and it's unfortunate that it doesn't exist anymore. But it simply didn't stand a chance against the Province of New Brunswick's highway mania. There isn't enough population to support the highways, let alone the highways plus a rail service.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Fredericton-St. John-Moncton-Halifax RDC service was a pretty neat way to re-introduce service to Fredericton and it's unfortunate that it doesn't exist anymore. But it simply didn't stand a chance against the Province of New Brunswick's highway mania. There isn't enough population to support the highways, let alone the highways plus a rail service.

I always saw the NB highways as a means to get through the province to NS/PEI or QC, while rail is a means to get to NB.

 

[steveintoronto]

Maybe VIA could be the unifying agency to help with navigating the mess of privately-operated intercity bus routes (as we discussed here).

I'm afraid this won't have a happy outcome. Most of the bus routes we know in this part of the nation are provincially regulated, and the 'map' we were discussing is firmly in the venue of Queen's Park, albeit as to what ministry is a good question. Further:

Canada's Vanishing Intercity
Train and Bus Services

[...] Canada’s Federal Government asserts economic jurisdiction over intercity passenger transportation across Canada and has delegated regulation of intercity bus transportation to provincial tribunals. Regulation protected established carriers from competition and purportedly assured transportation services to rural and outlying communities. Carriers were to use their earnings from their main routes to sustain services to intermediate points, but over the long term, rural and local intercity passenger train and intercity bus services have progressively disappeared across Canada.[...]

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/12/120815-5.html
His point is one of complete irony: "While government officials may attempt regulatory reform or subsidize intercity bus services, there is only one way to successfully reform economic regulation or to deregulate intercity bus and rail passenger transport services. That is to shut down the regulatory agencies."

From the Parliament of Canada:

INTERCITY BUS SERVICE IN CANADA

The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications

THIRD REPORT

5. OPTIONS FOR THE FUTURE

The following section identifies options based on the analysis of the issues in section four of this report. The Committee considered these options in arriving at its recommendations, which appear in the following section. These options are related to the key questions posed by the Minister when he invited the Committee to undertake this work. In summary, the Minister had asked for a prescription to solve the problems that face the bus industry, mainly the problem of the declining role of the bus industry in the movement of passengers in Canada.

In reality, the federal government has only a few ways in which it can bring about change in this field. These include: i) changes to the provisions of the federal Motor Vehicle Transport Act, 1987 concerning the economic regulation of buses; ii) changes to subsidy policies for other modes of transport; iii) changes to safety policies; and iv) the use of money, either as tax incentives and disincentives or through more direct subsidies, to correct various shortcomings.

5.1 Regulatory Options
[...continues at length...]

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/372/tran/rep/rep03dec02part1-e.htm
Our only one real hope is that D-S affects action on HFR.

Note to Urban: I bet you had no idea how popular those schedules would be when you posted the link? How long will they be available at Drop Box? I've still to try selecting all the links and downloading in one continuous stream. I'm using Linux. Anyone have any hints how to grab them all in one command?

 

[reaperexpress]

I'm afraid this won't have a happy outcome. Most of the bus routes we know in this part of the nation are provincially regulated, and the 'map' we were discussing is firmly in the venue of Queen's Park, albeit as to what ministry is a good question.

I'm talking about simply producing a more unified and trip planner and schedule. I'm not talking about VIA bossing around the private bus companies or something, so it really doesn't matter who regulates intercity buses. Last I heard, anyone can make a map or a bus schedule even if it's not their constitutional territory. Heck, I've made consolidated maps and schedules myself and I'm not even mentioned in the constitution.

Indeed as we can see in the schedules in the Dropbox, VIA did formerly list a number of relevant intercity bus schedules along with their own routes, and as I mentioned earlier, they continue to do so for Robert Q buses between London and Sarnia (though the buses seem to be shown only in the trip planner, not the timetable).

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm not talking about VIA bossing around the private bus companies or something, so it really doesn't matter who regulates intercity buses.

In the forum linked, the Quebec bus map was referenced, and it was a wonderful thing. The discussion centred around who in Ontario could/would do same. It's nothing to do with VIA, and was never implied as such. It's only vaguely within federal competence. It's the Province of Ontario remiss in publishing a map of all regulated coach routes so that one can see a way from 'A' to 'B' to travel by bus.

 

[reaperexpress]

In the forum linked, the Quebec bus map was referenced, and it was a wonderful thing. The discussion centred around who in Ontario could/would do same. It's nothing to do with VIA, and was never implied as such. It's only vaguely within federal competence. It's the Province of Ontario remiss in publishing a map of all regulated coach routes so that one can see a way from 'A' to 'B' to travel by bus.

I know we never discussed a federal map there, that's why I'm mentioning it now when the thought occurred to me. A provincial map would be very handy, but how does that prevent VIA from also signal-boosting the bus services which complement their rail service? This is similar to the way Amtrak lists relevant "Thruway" bus connections, which enable the train passengers to reach more destinations at a greater variety of times. Even Greyhound Canada lists certain bus services which complement its own, including Ontario Northland and Hammond Transportation trips.

 

[steveintoronto]

I know we never discussed a federal map there, that's why I'm mentioning it now when the thought occurred to me. A provincial map would be very handy, but how does that prevent VIA from also signal-boosting the bus services which complement their rail service? This is similar to the way Amtrak lists relevant "Thruway" bus connections, which enable the train passengers to reach more destinations at a greater variety of times. Even Greyhound Canada lists certain bus services which complement its own, including Ontario Northland and Hammond Transportation trips.

Thanks for clarification. It was inspirational revisiting that link, some excellent posts there, but this one remains the most revealing in terms of jurisdiction since the competencies haven't changed in the period mentioned:

I seem to remember that in the early 80's I had a copy of a map publication from the MTO/Government of Ontario that was an "Intercity Travel Guide" It was a map with contact info of all the rail and bus routes in the province. I think I might still have it. I'll try scaning it if I do.

If the provinces (besides the cited case of Quebec) still published comprehensive intercity bus maps, VIA might publish at least parts of them that interconnect with their services.

 

[reaperexpress]

If the provinces (besides the cited case of Quebec) still published comprehensive intercity bus maps, VIA might publish at least parts of them that interconnect with their services.

This is what I'm saying. Except there's no need for VIA to wait for the provinces - they're perfectly capable of making maps and timetables themselves.

 

[steveintoronto]

This is what I'm saying. Except there's no need for VIA to wait for the provinces - they're perfectly capable of making maps and timetables themselves.

It's an interesting supposition. I'm Googling for a mandate, if one exists, haven't found one yet, but this shows:

Management Philosophy

Print this page
OUR VISION


TO BE A SMARTER WAY TO MOVE PEOPLE


OUR MISSION


PASSENGERS FIRST. WE CONTINUOUSLY STRIVE TO OFFER
THEM A SMARTER AND SAFER TRAVEL
EXPERIENCE ACROSS CANADA.
[...]

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-company/management-philosophy

If fits!

 

[reaperexpress]

Here's an example. VIA does include Maritime Bus schedules in their trip planner, which is great because it expands their catchment beyond the handful of towns served by passenger rail.

Maritime Bus Network:

For example, here's a pretty reasonable trip plan for the 1200km journey from Charlottetown PEI to Montréal QC. It goes by Maritime Bus from Charlottetown to Moncton during the afternoon, then overnight on the VIA Ocean sleeper train.

But the only reason I know this trip is possible is that I specifically looked it up for this post. There is no mention on the VIA schedule that bus connections are available at Moncton (in contrast to historical VIA schedules and current Amtrak schedules), and there is no dashed line on the VIA map to indicate a bus connection like there is on the older VIA maps.

That's Quebec to PEI. But Quebec to New Brunswick is not so convenient. The trip planner doesn't seem to want to schedule any trips connecting in Rivière-du-Loup, I guess the bus and train have separate facilities there. So to get from Montreal to Fredericton, it sends you via Moncton, which results in a trip over 24h long, even though Fredericton is considerably closer than Charlottetown. The other issue is that the Ocean passes through Rivière-du-Loup in the middle of the night (01:13 EB, 03:53 WB), so it would be quite unpleasant to transfer there. If VIA invested in the eastern Quebec service (for example with a daytime train from Rimouski to Montréal via Rivière-du-Loup and Ste Foy), there would be a much better connection to central New Brunswick as well.

 

[steveintoronto]

Here's an example. VIA does include Maritime Bus schedules in their trip planner, which is great because it expands their catchment beyond the handful of towns served by passenger rail.[...]

Excellent map and depiction!

In all fairness to VIA (albeit I'm not letting them off the hook) the lack of *comprehensive* inter-modal maps could be put down to the digital age and a public more unfamiliar with the concept of planning trips where they actually have to think about it, rather than using an 'app'.

It's infuriating, and most in this string love maps, but it's gotten so ridiculous that even Ontario rail-trails, which criss-cross the province (albeit there are still gaps, but being filled fast) have no map to show them all and how they interconnect. It beggars belief that the Ontario tourism agency doesn't publish one. (Quebec does, but they have a provincial program overseeing cycling trails). I have to access every trail individually on-line (once discovering them by accident in many cases) to link them together.

And that's what is apparently happening with bus and rail maps. The carriers would all benefit by working together to present the traveller with options to get from 'A' to 'B' and rather than the carriers splitting the benefit, they get nothing as the potential passenger looks elsewhere, like renting a car or driving their own. Or flying.

I'd be interested to read what comment Urban could add to this, albeit it might put him in an awkward position as being spokesman rather than planner.