VIA Rail

[Northern Light]

With how you post, Ido not know if you think anything in Canada should see HSR. I merely mentioned Sudbury as it is within 400km of Toronto and people had compared Japan's HSR having commuters traveling that much each day.

While @Urban Sky can sometimes let his exasperation show..........

I think your post above makes it entirely clear that that is reasonable in some cases.

Sudbury is not Osaka.

Ontario is not Japan.

HSR is not a whimsical idea to be thrown about as if money flowed without limits.

If you wanted to honestly explore better transportation for these communities, where sensible, by rail, almost everyone here would be supportive.

But instead you insist on bringing up ideas you've brought up literally dozens of times before, here and elsewhere; ideas which are fanciful, and bordering on, or blowing past the absurd.

You're not adding to the conversation here. And Urban Sky isn't the only one losing patience. Its one thing for someone new to the subject, who has no understanding of the costs or obstacles involved to raise these ideas; its
another for you, who have done so countless times, and had it repeatedly explained to you why they aren't happening.

A gentle suggestion, you've been made unwelcome somewhere else you post...............maybe a bit more self-restraint is in order.

 

[micheal_can]

While @Urban Sky can sometimes let his exasperation show..........

I think your post above makes it entirely clear that that is reasonable in some cases.

Sudbury is not Osaka.

Ontario is not Japan.

HSR is not a whimsical idea to be thrown about as if money flowed without limits.

If you wanted to honestly explore better transportation for these communities, where sensible, by rail, almost everyone here would be supportive.

But instead you insist on bringing up ideas you've brought up literally dozens of times before, here and elsewhere; ideas which are fanciful, and bordering on, or blowing past the absurd.

You're not adding to the conversation here. And Urban Sky isn't the only one losing patience. Its one thing for someone new to the subject, who has no understanding of the costs or obstacles involved to raise these ideas; its
another for you, who have done so countless times, and had it repeatedly explained to you why they aren't happening.

A gentle suggestion, you've been made unwelcome somewhere else you post...............maybe a bit more self-restraint is in order.

I can refrain from it, if the others that bring it up can get the same treatment. I did not bring up Japan, just merely kept it going.

 

[Urban Sky]

With how you post, Ido not know if you think anything in Canada should see HSR.

When you look at virtually any HSR network on this planet (Saudi-Arabia maybe being the notable exception), HSR was always preceeded by a somewhat-fast-and-frequent intercity rail service, very similar to what HFR aims to establish in the Corridor. With HFR having a lead time of less than a decade once the go-ahead decision is made, whereas it‘s at least twice that delay for HSR, it should become clear that the only two realistic options we have here in this country are to either build HFR now so that we can have HSR within our lifetimes or to wait eternally for HSR to somehow fall from the sky…

I merely mentioned Sudbury as it is within 400km of Toronto and people had compared Japan's HSR having commuters traveling that much each day.

Fair enough, but that remark was utter nonsense. I‘ve personally done same-day-returns by rail from Montreal to Toronto and back, but no sane person would accept this on a regular basis - and it‘s therefore ridiculous to base the business model (or even rationale) of such a service on frequent travellers…

 

[micheal_can]

When you look at virtually any HSR network on this planet (Saudi-Arabia maybe being the notable exception), HSR was always preceeded by a somewhat-fast-and-frequent intercity rail service. With HFR having a lead time of less than a decade once the go-ahead decision is made, whereas it‘s at least twice that time span for HSR, it should become clear that the only two realistic options we have here in this country are to either build HFR now so that we can have HSR tomorrow or to wait eternally for HSR to somehow fall from the sky…

I think HFR is a good idea. However,if a reasonable bid comesin for HSR, it would be nice if we could find that extra money to pay for it.

Fair enough, but that remark was utter nonsense. I‘ve personally done same-day-returns by rail from Montreal to Toronto and back, but no sane person would accept this on a regular basis - and it‘s therefore ridiculous to base the business model (or even rationale) of such a service on frequent travellers…

Frankly,Iseeonly 2 places that HSR should be put. That would be the TOM and CE. Nowhere else has he population to support it. However, if we want to open up other locales for growth to relieve the stress in the GTA, then anywhere within 1 hour by HSR could be considered.

 

[reaperexpress]

Trois-Rivières would certainly boom with HFR, but it‘s unfortunately difficult to conceive how frequent intercity services could be centered around linking Montreal with Drummondville or Sherbrooke…

Cities such as Drummondville, Ste-Hyacinthe and Sherbrooke should definitely have fast and frequent rail links to Montreal. Whether you want to call those links intercity or not is purely semantics.

Reaperexpress fantasy regional map. Lines are coloured by their Montréal terminus. Pink is Gare Centrale (via new tunnel Mont-Royal), Yellow is a new metro station in Longueuil on a Yellow Line extension, Blue is Gare Centrale (south), and Red is Lucien L'Allier.

 

[micheal_can]

Cities such as Drummondville, Ste-Hyacinthe and Sherbrooke should definitely have fast and frequent rail links to Montreal. Whether you want to call those links intercity or not is purely semantics.

Reaperexpress fantasy regional map. Lines are coloured by their Montréal terminus. Pink is Gare Centrale (via new tunnel Mont-Royal), Yellow is a new metro station in Longueuil on a Yellow Line extension, Blue is Gare Centrale (south), and Red is Lucien L'Allier.
View attachment 507105

Is that something EXO should do?

 

[lenaitch]

I think HFR is a good idea. However,if a reasonable bid comesin for HSR, it would be nice if we could find that extra money to pay for it.


Frankly,Iseeonly 2 places that HSR should be put. That would be the TOM and CE. Nowhere else has he population to support it. However, if we want to open up other locales for growth to relieve the stress in the GTA, then anywhere within 1 hour by HSR could be considered.

But your just spent several posts arguing for high speed connections to Sudbury.

Is that something EXO should do?

Yup. Sounds like a perfect application of 'Quebec - GO', funded by Quebec taxpayers and passengers. They can make their case to the feds for funding like any other province.

 

[micheal_can]

This is entirely on point. Japan's HSR riders are largely commuters (during peak usage periods at least) doing ~300km distances (roughly 1 hour). If transportation allowed a Sudbury to Toronto trip within 1 hour and for $20, it would be quite attractive as a residential suburb of Toronto.

CRRC is developing a 450km/h (speed testing complete, production deployment in development), so in 10 years that scenario will be technically possible if we wanted to spend a huge amount of money to achieve it.

A 2 hr commute is doable if someone is going once a week. Yes it’s a long day but one can work on the train too. The point is to provide options. It doesn’t even have to be Shinkansen speed. A decent speed that connects the two cities within 2-2.5hrs would do it. With connectivity to other northern communities Sudbury can become a northern hub. The point is to encourage population growth there rather than fitting more people into Southern Ontario. If our province had a proper strategy and plan this could work. It doesn’t and our government actually doesn’t have the capacity or capabilities to do this kind of work. So this is just pie in the sky dreaming.

Let’s see when the Northlander train comes back. I predict no earlier than 2030.

But your just spent several posts arguing for high speed connections to Sudbury.

I was not the one who mentioned it. See above.
I did mention more service, but a daily, on conventional rail would be the best option if any expansion happens. Something similar tothe up coming Northlander would be more than great.

Yup. Sounds like a perfect application of 'Quebec - GO', funded by Quebec taxpayers and passengers. They can make their case to the feds for funding like any other province.

It could be an extension of the Mount St Hillaire.line.

 

[nfitz]

Is that something EXO should do?

You'd think so. They are all at distances comparable to GO services in Toronto. The furthest (Sherbrooke) is about the same distance away at Niagara Falls.

St-Jean-de-Richelieu is only about the same distance from Central Station (42 km) as Ajax.

Though the alignment shown is awful from Central, with lots of very tight curves on the CN line through St-Lambert and Longueil before doubling back through Brossard and even a bit of La Prairie! . Could it be quicker to simply extend the Candiac (Delson) train another 20 km (in an almost dead-straight CP line) to St-Jean? It could serve Iberville and even Sherbrooke too. CP used to serve that in as fast as 40 minutes from Windsor Station with some stops; even VIA used to do it in 45 minutes with some stops. B&M used to operate a non-stop service from Central Station to St. Jean that was 45 minutes. I'd think adding in some key stops would make for slower service - even though the CP line is 47 km.

It could be an extension of the Mount St Hillaire.line.

By the 1980s the CN commuter train stopped in St-Hilaire (or was it St-Hilaire East - I used to get of in St-Hilaire). But when VIA took over most of the other CN services in the 1970s, it went all the way to Sherbrooke. (a second trainset ran an evening service in both directions - but express from Central to St-Hyacinthe). Back in the 1960s, the (and still only once a day) commuter train ran all the way to St-Hyacinthe. But there were 3 daily expresses to St-Hyacinthe that went on to Sherbrooke. (of course this was in addition to the 3 daily CP trains to Sherbrooke - via St-Jean.

 

[micheal_can]

You'd think so. They are all at distances comparable to GO services in Toronto. The furthest (Sherbrooke) is about the same distance away at Niagara Falls.

St-Jean-de-Richelieu is only about the same distance from Central Station (42 km) as Ajax.

Though the alignment shown is awful from Central, with lots of very tight curves on the CN line through St-Lambert and Longueil before doubling back through Brossard and even a bit of La Prairie! . Could it be quicker to simply extend the Candiac (Delson) train another 20 km (in an almost dead-straight CP line) to St-Jean? It could serve Iberville too. CP used to serve that in as fast as 40 minutes from Windsor Station with some stops; even VIA used to do it in 45 minutes with some stops. B&M used to operate a non-stop service from Central Station to St. Jean that was 45 minutes. I'd think adding in some key stops would make for slower service - even though the CP line is 47 km.

I meant for Drummondville service. Mind you, for Sherbrooke, extending the service along the CP line would make sense,

 

[micheal_can]

On second thought, maybe for Sherbrooke, Via brings back the Atlantic service. Then it could help those that want service from Saint John to Halifax. It couldeven rin with no stops in the USA for customs purposes.

 

[Urban Sky]

On second thought, maybe for Sherbrooke, Via brings back the Atlantic service. Then it could help those that want service from Saint John to Halifax. It couldeven rin with no stops in the USA for customs purposes.

And here come your railfan daydreams again - as if there was even the slightest chance of the US opening not one but two new border crossing points, let alone: allowing passengers transit without any border checks as of it was still the middle of the 20th century! Not to mention that you still don’t seem to grasp after years of getting this explained on a monthly basis that it‘s not VIA which decides whether additional funding gets allocated to restore services or not…

 

[micheal_can]

And here come your railfan daydreams again - as if there was even the slightest chance of the US opening a new border crossing point, let alone: allowing passengers transit without any border checks as of it was still the middle of the 20th century…

Extending any service to Sherbrooke, like mentioned by others are rail fan daydreams. I merely pointed out 2 options. Equally as fanatically as suggested below.

You'd think so. They are all at distances comparable to GO services in Toronto. The furthest (Sherbrooke) is about the same distance away at Niagara Falls.

St-Jean-de-Richelieu is only about the same distance from Central Station (42 km) as Ajax.

Though the alignment shown is awful from Central, with lots of very tight curves on the CN line through St-Lambert and Longueil before doubling back through Brossard and even a bit of La Prairie! . Could it be quicker to simply extend the Candiac (Delson) train another 20 km (in an almost dead-straight CP line) to St-Jean? It could serve Iberville and even Sherbrooke too. CP used to serve that in as fast as 40 minutes from Windsor Station with some stops; even VIA used to do it in 45 minutes with some stops. B&M used to operate a non-stop service from Central Station to St. Jean that was 45 minutes. I'd think adding in some key stops would make for slower service - even though the CP line is 47 km.

By the 1980s the CN commuter train stopped in St-Hilaire (or was it St-Hilaire East - I used to get of in St-Hilaire). But when VIA took over most of the other CN services in the 1970s, it went all the way to Sherbrooke. (a second trainset ran an evening service in both directions - but express from Central to St-Hyacinthe). Back in the 1960s, the (and still only once a day) commuter train ran all the way to St-Hyacinthe. But there were 3 daily expresses to St-Hyacinthe that went on to Sherbrooke. (of course this was in addition to the 3 daily CP trains to Sherbrooke - via St-Jean.

 

[reaperexpress]

Is that something EXO should do?

Yes I'd say so. It certainly isn't a Federal matter.

Though the alignment shown is awful from Central, with lots of very tight curves on the CN line through St-Lambert and Longueil before doubling back through Brossard and even a bit of La Prairie! . Could it be quicker to simply extend the Candiac (Delson) train another 20 km (in an almost dead-straight CP line) to St-Jean? It could serve Iberville too. CP used to serve that in as fast as 40 minutes from Windsor Station with some stops; even VIA used to do it in 45 minutes with some stops. B&M used to operate a non-stop service from Central Station to St. Jean that was 45 minutes. I'd think adding in some key stops would make for slower service - even though the CP line is 47 km.

I didn't conduct a full feasibility study, it's lines on a map. The alignment to St-Jean-sur-Richelieu follows the CN alignment because the I think Amtrak should stay at Gare Centrale where the rest of the Intercity services are and where there is space set aside as a customs pre-clearance facility. The railway is not particularly significant to CN, as evidenced by the fact that they've let it deteriorate to the point that Amtrak has needed to cancel its trains until tracks are fixed. So they probably wouldn't mind selling it to the Province of Québec, who can upgrade it to enable much faster trips to the U.S., with a commuter service to St-Jean-sur-Richelieu as a side benefit.

The CP alignment might be geometrically better, but CPKC would never sell that line to the Province, and that routing doesn't address the travel time issues on Amtrak's Adirondack and future Montrealer services.

Tracks in the Montréal Region
Dark blue = CN
Red = CPKC
Light blue = Province of Québec
Amber = shortline operators

 

[micheal_can]

Yes I'd say so. It certainly isn't a Federal matter.


I didn't conduct a full feasibility study, it's lines on a map. I'm happy for the Sherbrooke service to take whichever route is determined to be superior based on an actual study.

That said, I'd like to point out that CP alignment is just as curvy as the alignment I showed, but instead of using a CN line which has already been upgraded to intercity passenger standards and a shortline railway which could easily be purchased and upgraded by the Province, it uses the CP mainline which is not currently built for passenger speeds or capacity and has little to no likelihood of being sold to the Province.

Tracks in the Montréal Region
Dark blue = CN
Red = CPKC
Light blue = Province of Québec
Amber = shortline operators
View attachment 507126

It depends on what the goal is. The Blue/Yellow makes sense if you want one line. However, if the goal is to connect to as much as possible, keeping the 2 lines separate would make sense.