Allandale25
Senior Member
CPKC, not CN.
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
CPKC, not CN.
hw621
Senior Member
This HFR is a joke really. Why are we even talking about this?
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Maybe because it’s despite all its shortcomings the best joke we have heard so far…?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
The whole point of blackmailing CN/CP with making them build hundreds of overpasses all over the country is that VIA wouldn't have to build any new track. The tracks are there, VIA just can't get their hands on one of them because Ottawa keeps sticking their ass in the air for CN/CP.
The two run routes parallel to each other from Chatham to Napanee and then split into 2, one taking Lakeshore and the other going inland but both ending in Montreal and both having VIA owned lines from both the East and West to connect to Ottawa. Ottawa should tell them that they are going to have to share track from Chatham to Napanee using either track from Chatham to London {VIA owns Chatham to Windsor} and then the straight line from London to Woodstock onto Albershot. They must relinquish the entire Mid-Toronto corridor and share the York Region east/west line which is very doable as both CN/CP meet at Milton where the northern Toronto bypass begins. East of Napanee they must be pushed onto the northern route so VIA controls the Lakeshore line to offer HFR/HSR to Kingston and still provide local service to populated areas along the St.Lawrence.
Such a plan would require no new track for VIA and not a lot of upgrades because the Lakeshore line is in very good repair and is relatively straight. If Ottawa would grab a pair and lay down the law to CN/CP then the entire Windsor to Montreal corridor could have HFR almost immediately and then continue to upgrade the line, further enhance safety with key interchanges, and electrify it for eventual TRUE HSR electric trains.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Just another friendly reminder that the market capitalization of Canadian National, Canadian Pacific, Volkswagen Group, Mercedes Benz Group, BMW and Porsche are all in the range of C$100 billion, which means that the big two Canadian freight railroads represent a similar share of national GDP as the big four German carmakers.
If you’ve whitnessed how relentless and shameless the German government has lobbied Brussels to prevent meaningful regulation of the car industry*, you can’t be surprised that Canadian governments are reluctant to start an unnecessary war with CN or CP(-KC), especially since the latter are absolutely essential in achieving Canada’s carbon targets…
*which, by the way, has served German carmakers very poorly, as lobbying is an extremely poor substitute for innovation and adapting to an increasingly post-fossile core market…
If you’ve whitnessed how relentless and shameless the German government has lobbied Brussels to prevent meaningful regulation of the car industry*, you can’t be surprised that Canadian governments are reluctant to start an unnecessary war with CN or CP(-KC), especially since the latter are absolutely essential in achieving Canada’s carbon targets…
*which, by the way, has served German carmakers very poorly, as lobbying is an extremely poor substitute for innovation and adapting to an increasingly post-fossile core market…
crs1026
Superstar
The economic contribution of CN/CPKC is probably even greater than the German auto industry, as in this country transportation enables a great many things.
That doesn't negate the observation, however, that in Canada the railways have the upper hand in bargaining power, and Canada is forced into many dysfunctional practices and accepts many opportunity costs because sensible policy options are vetoed purely because of the railways' self interest. There are plenty of options that would work well if the railways would buy in.... and the cost of these to shippers and rail investors is largely fictional, or at best affordable within some form of public investment and support.
I don't necessarily agree with @ssiguy2 's whole argument, but selective co-production and strategic utilisation of existing corridors, especially in urban areas, is probably a whole lot easier than the railways claim, and it does present huge opportunities to Canada for both freight and passenger transportation.
Fundamentally, I don't like bullying, and the railways' behaviour has elements of this. It's complicated, and simplistic solutions would be bad for the country.... but the status quo should not be seen as unchangeable or acceptable.
- Paul
IRT_BMT_IND
Active Member
The CP network probably does not have the capacity for both company's traffic. Unlike CN the CP network in Ontario is mostly single track (CP actually removed the double track from the Winchester sub in 2020), and west of Guelph junction is mostly not CTC controlled. The York and Halton subdivisions may not have enough capacity for both either (especially the section in Brampton shared with Metrolinx), and building the necessary curves to connect to the CP network would require land acquisition is likely easier said than done.
There are a few areas with CP and CN do manage to play ball with each other, so its not out of the question but there's a lot of obstacles. I can't imagine CN would be willing to put its core services at the mercy of CP's RTCs on mostly single track lines. This is where having the actual infrastructure owned and managed by a neutral third party (like in Australia) and CP/CN leasing access would be ideal, but unlikely in a North American context.
There are a few areas with CP and CN do manage to play ball with each other, so its not out of the question but there's a lot of obstacles. I can't imagine CN would be willing to put its core services at the mercy of CP's RTCs on mostly single track lines. This is where having the actual infrastructure owned and managed by a neutral third party (like in Australia) and CP/CN leasing access would be ideal, but unlikely in a North American context.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I totally agree with you that bullying is not the best option. It is always better for parties to work together to reach common ground that works for everyone. Blackmail should be the last option BUT if push comes to shove and CN/CP are not willing to compromise or even engage in meaningful negotiations, the blackmail should still be present. If CN/CP know that ahead of time that the meeting with Ottawa is just another bureaucratic roundtable with no teeth to back it up, I doubt they would even show up but if the threat of such regulations were present they would demand a meeting yesterday.
Again, it's hopefully they can all come to the table with a spirit of cooperation but sometimes that just doesn't work. Sometimes the only thing bullies understand is bullying.
SashaLemon
Active Member
Given that the CDPQ owns 17.5% of Alstom, I assume Alstom would be looped in to the first group.
littlewill1166
Active Member
In case anyone was curious...
Bordercollie
Senior Member
What exactly is this a map of?
Urban Sky
Senior Member
I’d guess one of many VIA train detouring via Doncaster this weekend during planned engineering works on the Kingston Subdivision…
nfitz
Superstar
Yes - construction near Scarborough station. I'd think we'll see a lot more of this soon, with the fourth track work getting going soon. And the fourth, fifth, and sixth tracks with the new subway line from the Don to Pape.
There's been some discussion about this on the railway thread - https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/general-railway-discussions.31918/page-87#post-1972223
DSC
Superstar
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Yes, I saw three VIA trains on the line up the Don river yesterday. I had assumed it was because Metrolinx was working on the bridges for the Ontario line. https://www.metrolinx.com/en/news/new-bridge-coming-to-eastern-avenue
nfitz
Superstar
I don't thing they need to do a closure for that one. They dropped the new span in last weekend (I think), for the fourth track at Woodbine, without a rail closure; just the road.
That's been an interesting project to watch. It's quite clear that the bridge structure itself was designed for a 4th track right from the beginning in the 1950s, and the work to put it in has been surprisingly minimal.
Eastern (and Queen, Logan, Carlaw, Dundas, Gerrard) are going to be more interesting as they appear to be all be only built for four tracks wide (maybe 5 at Eastern). So they are going to have to do significant work. Heck, with stations on two of them.