T3G
Senior Member
Thank God.
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TTC: Streetcar Network
- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
reaperexpress
Senior Member
All these people who dream of eliminating the overhead electrification we already have clearly havent thought through the amount of energy losses involved with charging and discharging batteries (much higher energy loss than just running the train directly off the grid), the infrastructure maintenance consequences of making streetcars much heavier, nor the energy efficiency and acceleration penalty of lugging around heavy batteries, or the financial cost of purchasing such a large quantity of batteries every couple decades. Battery-electric vehicles may be more cost effective than diesel, but they are not more cost-effective than overhead electric when you already have the overhead electrification in place.
The efficiency of battery-electric buses and streetcars always limited by charging opportunities. The more opportunity you have to charge the vehicle along the route, the smaller your battery can be, with corresponding improvements in energy efficiency, vehicle cost and acceleration. The ideal would be in-motion trickle charging, which requires continuous overhead electrification for a decent portion of the route. The absolute worst is fast-charging, since you first need to charge a wayside battery for the charger (since you can't suddenly connect a huge peak load directly to the grid) with energy losses, then that charger needs to charge the streetcar, with even more energy losses, and finally the battery needs to be used to operate the streetcar with all the usual energy losses.
There are definitely some cost savings to be had by adding small batteries to streetcars, but it would be by removing some of the overhead wires in yards and non-revenue / diversion track, not by dismantling a large proportion of the overhead wire on the network.
The efficiency of battery-electric buses and streetcars always limited by charging opportunities. The more opportunity you have to charge the vehicle along the route, the smaller your battery can be, with corresponding improvements in energy efficiency, vehicle cost and acceleration. The ideal would be in-motion trickle charging, which requires continuous overhead electrification for a decent portion of the route. The absolute worst is fast-charging, since you first need to charge a wayside battery for the charger (since you can't suddenly connect a huge peak load directly to the grid) with energy losses, then that charger needs to charge the streetcar, with even more energy losses, and finally the battery needs to be used to operate the streetcar with all the usual energy losses.
There are definitely some cost savings to be had by adding small batteries to streetcars, but it would be by removing some of the overhead wires in yards and non-revenue / diversion track, not by dismantling a large proportion of the overhead wire on the network.
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nightstreak
Active Member
Why would they be on the 501 at all? Nobody cares that the line follows a different path underground. They pick the quickest route to their destination. The natural place to change to the subway from a Queen East streetcar would be at Riverside station and take the subway across town to the nearest subway station to their destination or transfer to the last leg of their journey on a route that will take them there.
Toronto has spent decades with the 501 in mixed traffic as the only method of transit along Queen and never did these things, what makes you think that once there's a faster alternative running under Queen that the city is going to suddenly work on mixed traffic transit priority on Queen Street?
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Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Detroit's Q-Line is still free. The double-ended streetcars runs on batteries on portions of the route. See https://wdet.org/2024/09/23/rta-to-take-over-qline-operations-expanding-funding-opportunities/
A reason to cross over on the Gordie Howe International Bridge to visit Detroit to look it and ride it.
A reason to cross over on the Gordie Howe International Bridge to visit Detroit to look it and ride it.
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zang
Senior Member
Why battery power? Alstom already has APS, and batteries increase complexity, maintenance costs and (assuming Li Ion batteries) weight and safety concerns.
APS: Service-proven catenary-free tramway operations
APS™ (Aesthetic Power Supply) is a highly reliable power system that reduces the footprint of light rail lines and preserves the aesthetics of urban environments.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
I think we have to look at what we're trying to achieve here. Investing in new and more complex technologies just to remove a couple of wires hardly seems worth it.
drum118
Superstar
Not true free.
There are overhead at the sport complex area and from the 3rd last north station to the last north station. Various stations have overhead charging stations, The last south station is charged from the overhead charger while the last north station charger is in between the station and the carhouse on a single track,
On opening day, cars had to do a full recharge at various stations due ridership that kill the quality of service. The batteries had to be upgraded to deal with lack of power that was supposed to be only top off at the various changing stations as plan not the full charging.
Today, the lack of ridership helps dealing with the lost of power.
thenorth
New Member
Why haven’t we heard anything from Staff yet on TSP for the streetcar network? I thought they were supposed to report back by January. Although I may be mistaken.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Posted by the Mayor today:
Deployment of improved TSP on Finch started today, Eglinton to follow. She didn't mention it but several UT members documented that phase rotation had been enabled at Spadina & Dundas a week ago. It has also been activated at Spadina & College and Spadina & King.
I have not heard any public announcements about changes other than adding phase rotation.
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Richard White
Senior Member
Apparently the 510 will be out for a few days due to underground power issues.
This doesn't bode well for the world cup
https://www.cp24.com/local/toronto/...ely-be-out-of-service-for-couple-of-days-ttc/
This doesn't bode well for the world cup
https://www.cp24.com/local/toronto/...ely-be-out-of-service-for-couple-of-days-ttc/
seanlucat
New Member
not at all comparable, Qline is 5.3km long, has a daily ridership of 2600 and only operates with 4 vehicles.
nightstreak
Active Member
Something has changed at King and Yonge. East-West pedestrian signals now take another 10-20 seconds at red while streetcars get the green to roll through. I’m glad the streetcar is getting priority but it seems poorly thought out. The streetcar doesn’t turn and never interacts with the east-west pedestrian crosswalk.
seanlucat
New Member
the more and more I think about everything wrong with the streetcar system in Toronto, it seems like Melbourne is our closest point of comparison.
other than our shared lack of speed and transit priority, Melbourne exceeds Toronto in quality.
from the use of many different generation of trams, which are double ended,
to the reduced junction complexity in the busiest sections and use of double point switches,
and level boarding from some stops, and stop consolidation.
as for batteries, there's the new G-class trams being rolled out that use on board batteries to reduce the strain on the overhead power supply which is a far more logical use of batteries. allowing for greater utilization of aging infrastructure.
(also GO should also look towards Sydney trains as a point of comparison and where they could improve)
other than our shared lack of speed and transit priority, Melbourne exceeds Toronto in quality.
from the use of many different generation of trams, which are double ended,
to the reduced junction complexity in the busiest sections and use of double point switches,
and level boarding from some stops, and stop consolidation.
as for batteries, there's the new G-class trams being rolled out that use on board batteries to reduce the strain on the overhead power supply which is a far more logical use of batteries. allowing for greater utilization of aging infrastructure.
(also GO should also look towards Sydney trains as a point of comparison and where they could improve)
drum118
Superstar
TTC working to repair damaged cables to restore streetcar service on Spadina Avenue
February 24, 2026
510 Spadina streetcars have been temporarily replaced with buses while crews replace damaged underground power cables that supply electricity to the overhead streetcar wires along Spadina Ave. Shuttle buses are operating between Spadina Station and Queens Quay, serving curbside stops to maintain service for customers, and additional staff are on hand at Spadina and Union stations, as well as the Queens Quay transfer point, to assist with wayfinding and transfers. Extra streetcar service has been added along the waterfront between Union Station and Queens Quay.
The damage was identified with reports of a cable chamber fire on the afternoon of Monday, Feb. 23. Repairs require the replacement of 640 metres of underground electrical cables running from Adelaide to Queen St. through multiple cable chambers along the Spadina corridor. Due to the location of the infrastructure, the work is complex and must be completed in confined underground spaces, requiring careful coordination, safety controls, and staged access to multiple chambers.
The cable replacement work is being carried out by contractor forces, supported by TTC staff. Work began overnight on Feb. 23 and is continuing around the clock. At this time, the repair is expected to be completed by the end of the week, though bus replacement service will remain in place until all testing is complete and the infrastructure is confirmed safe for streetcar operations.
The TTC is committed to keeping customers informed about work and events that impact service, as well as alternate route options. For the most up-to-date information, follow @TTCNotices on X or sign up for eAlerts.
February 24, 2026
510 Spadina streetcars have been temporarily replaced with buses while crews replace damaged underground power cables that supply electricity to the overhead streetcar wires along Spadina Ave. Shuttle buses are operating between Spadina Station and Queens Quay, serving curbside stops to maintain service for customers, and additional staff are on hand at Spadina and Union stations, as well as the Queens Quay transfer point, to assist with wayfinding and transfers. Extra streetcar service has been added along the waterfront between Union Station and Queens Quay.
The damage was identified with reports of a cable chamber fire on the afternoon of Monday, Feb. 23. Repairs require the replacement of 640 metres of underground electrical cables running from Adelaide to Queen St. through multiple cable chambers along the Spadina corridor. Due to the location of the infrastructure, the work is complex and must be completed in confined underground spaces, requiring careful coordination, safety controls, and staged access to multiple chambers.
The cable replacement work is being carried out by contractor forces, supported by TTC staff. Work began overnight on Feb. 23 and is continuing around the clock. At this time, the repair is expected to be completed by the end of the week, though bus replacement service will remain in place until all testing is complete and the infrastructure is confirmed safe for streetcar operations.
The TTC is committed to keeping customers informed about work and events that impact service, as well as alternate route options. For the most up-to-date information, follow @TTCNotices on X or sign up for eAlerts.
nightstreak
Active Member
↑ Maybe there is a benefit to adding batteries to the existing fleet. Even just a smaller battery that charges while the pantograph is connected, that can skip short sections of unpowered wiring and even diminish or eliminate the need for complex intersection wiring.
