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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

Transit City was as much social engineering as it was transit planning. It was firmly routed in the idea that 'priority neighbourhoods' should have better access to transit.

It used one type of technology and one type of operating environment everywhere, unless that operating environment absolutely couldn't happen (ie central Eglinton). It failed to deliver any kind of improved transit to the downtown area, and in fact would have exasperated it if fully built out. It overspent in some areas (lines that could have just as easily been BRT for a fraction of the cost) and underspent in some other areas (lines that should have been grade-separated were at-grade).

It was applying a one-size-fits-all solution to a variety of different corridors that, quite frankly, needed different sizes. It also applied no solutions to corridors that desperately needed one. And because of this one-size-fits-all solution, it imposed unnecessary and inconvenient transfers (or kept them) on a lot of major travel patterns throughout the city.

Transit City was a very, very flawed plan. I have supported elements of it, but the plan as a whole was something I could never get behind.
 
cbrown2009 said:
To the Sheppard Subway vs LRT, I would still like to know once and for all if it's possible to convert the current subway to run LRT and what would be involved with lowering platforms/raising tracks in stations & replacing the third rail with power LRT can use.
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It is possible, but it would require a shutdown. I've detailed in another thread earlier how I think it could be done. Here's a summary: Open up the entire platform, run 2-car trains more frequently on Sheppard instead of the usual 4-car, fence off half the platform, do construction work to lower it, shut the line down for a month or two to change the tracks and power system, open using 2 car LRT trains, lower the other half of the platform to match.

I also did the math a while ago to show that the cost of an extension of the Sheppard Subway as a subway to Downsview would be relatively cost-neutral to doing a conversion to LRT and extending westward at-grade to Downsview as LRT.
 
Yea, Sheppard East LRT is my least favourite project of transit city TBH. The remnant of a project David Miller felt compelled to put in to appease the Scarborough Crowd in a sort of "me-too" kind of way. You've already built Sheppard to Don Mills. Just finish it complete in the west to Downsview and to STC in the east, my goodness. I'm a transportation planner and I know that Sheppard East can definitely do with an LRT, but for some reason, on a personal level, I'd just rather see the line completed. It's totally illogical when you look at the ridership numbers, but something in my head thinks that a complete line from STC to Downsview would just make more sense in terms of social optics when we've already spent the money on the subway to Don Mills. As I said, it's totally illogical when you look at it by the ridership numbers, but it's just something about it that makes we want it as a subway, and I believe that many people in Toronto who have ever had to commute for a sizeable amount of time north of Bloor St feel similarly.
 
I agree that there were parts of Transit City I would have adjusted, but I think the idea & proposal as it stood was a very good starting point. Certain details could have been worked through. And though Transit City itself didn't necessarily include a Yonge relief line per se, I felt that Transit City, even the truncated 4 line version, was a great step forward for Toronto transit and the Relief Line a very logical next step with the Waterfront East & Eglinton East & West extensions in lockstep (I like the East extension personally). It never should have been an either-or scenario imho. All of these projects could & should have a place in a much improved transit network. Add more all day Go trains, better service & fare integration, and those transport & destination hubs, and now I weep at what Toronto could have looked like by 2025.

If everything had been left alone, we wouldn't even be having this discussion concerning Finch West, Sheppard East or Scarborough Subway vs LRT conversion. We would be focussed on the Relief Line. Costs, alignments etc would be the main conversation at this point.
 
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gweed123 said:
Transit City was as much social engineering as it was transit planning. It was firmly routed in the idea that 'priority neighbourhoods' should have better access to transit.
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I was not paying attention to transit in 2007 when Transit City happened, but I don't really see what's wrong with serving low-income neighbourhoods with transit?

Low-income areas in the suburbs tend to be high density since they are in clusters of 10-20 story apartment buildings, and they tend not to own cars, so they are transit users.

Is serving those people not fulfilling the goal of moving people? I fail to see what's so horrible about building transit to low income high-ridership areas in the suburbs.

I also hear people criticize Transit City for being ideological, wanting to "europeanize" streets. What I see in the EA's is that it was determined that full grade separation was not required due to projected ridership, PPPHD estimates. I don't see what's idealogical about that. If you need full grade separation, we build a subway or elevated, if not and there's room, at-grade. Is that ideological?
 
ehlow said:
I was not paying attention to transit in 2007 when Transit City happened, but I don't really see what's wrong with serving low-income neighbourhoods with transit?

Low-income areas in the suburbs tend to be high density since they are in clusters of 10-20 story apartment buildings, and they tend not to own cars, so they are transit users.

Is serving those people not fulfilling the goal of moving people? I fail to see what's so horrible about building transit to low income high-ridership areas in the suburbs.

I also hear people criticize Transit City for being ideological, wanting to "europeanize" streets. What I see in the EA's is that it was determined that full grade separation was not required due to projected ridership, PPPHD estimates. I don't see what's idealogical about that. If you need full grade separation, we build a subway or elevated, if not and there's room, at-grade. Is that ideological?
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I agree 100%. Serving those neighbourhoods with superior transit that didn't necessarily need subways as well as reaching far-flung areas of the city that would never see subways were the two main points of Transit City.
 
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BMO said:
Yea, Sheppard East LRT is my least favourite project of transit city TBH. The remnant of a project David Miller felt compelled to put in to appease the Scarborough Crowd in a sort of "me-too" kind of way. You've already built Sheppard to Don Mills. Just finish it complete in the west to Downsview and to STC in the east, my goodness. I'm a transportation planner and I know that Sheppard East can definitely do with an LRT, but for some reason, on a personal level, I'd just rather see the line completed. It's totally illogical when you look at the ridership numbers, but something in my head thinks that a complete line from STC to Downsview would just make more sense in terms of social optics when we've already spent the money on the subway to Don Mills. As I said, it's totally illogical when you look at it by the ridership numbers, but it's just something about it that makes we want it as a subway, and I believe that many people in Toronto who have ever had to commute for a sizeable amount of time north of Bloor St feel similarly.
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I hear you completely, my issue is very few people commute from NYCC to STC and back To be honest if it is a subway it should go to sheppard/weston and just cover the whole grid. Again, illogical, but it's tick if you will, that makes me see it like that sometimes.
 
Sheppard West is a matter of time I think. The Eastern part is the big question. Due to the Bloor-Danforth Line going to Sheppard Avenue East, an LRT really doesn't make any sense on that corridor anymore. Those ridership numbers linked to that projects are now obsolete and does not reflect the new reality. The ridership on a future LRT would drastically drop past McCowan Road going west. Most people east of McCowan wouldn't bother to go to Don Mills and just take the subway at McCowan and Sheppard.

An extension to Victoria Park is a good idea. An extension to Agincourt in a regional transit context (merge Leslie/Oriole with Agincourt GO offering frequent service on all their lines) where GO, TTC and the City of Toronto would wish to make a transit hub with more density would make sense. No wonder our transit lines are saturated, everybody's going in the same area for work and entertainment. There needs to be more options for employers to set up shop besides Bay street and along Yonge street. If the Danforth line went to Finch, diverting the Sheppard line past Agincourt to go along Finch East would make sense.

I know it does sound very contradictory to dismiss LRT than be pro subway, that's why again, building a line just to build one, would not make sense (Even I admit it). If GO, TTC and City of Toronto would do something like I point out above, then that makes more sense. I personally don't believe that the Sheppard East LRT as envisioned by Transit City won't draw anybody like the Neptis report pointed out. An LRT built right like Neptis suggested which would be 100% grade separated (elevated, barriers at intersections) or like the London DLR, then it could work.

A TRUE LRT built right would work. Not this Transit City streetcar model.
That's just my opinion...
 
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denfromoakvillemilton said:
I hear you completely, my issue is very few people commute from NYCC to STC and back To be honest if it is a subway it should go to sheppard/weston and just cover the whole grid. Again, illogical, but it's tick if you will, that makes me see it like that sometimes.
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That's what I'm thinking with regards to low ridership, if we do switch to a subway plan, won't the priority drop so far that it won't happen until decades later?

Therefore we'll essentially be stuck with a permanent bus to subway "forced transfer" at Don Mills as it has been for >10 years, or Vic Park if it's extended a bit in the meantime.
 
Even if Ford is re-elected as Mayor, I don't believe Council as a whole will change to suit him the way he wants.
Hudak says he will build subways but with all the downsizing, privatizing and lack of any kind of financing plan besides pulling all the cushions out of the couch looking for spare change, I don't see where the money's coming from.
The feds are saying (for now), that the $600million white knight that showed up for the Scarborough extension was a one-time event.
Unless the City is willing to go it alone with all the extra capital funding, not to mention responsibility for hidden costs, overruns and ongoing operations losses, it doesn't look all that good for a Sheppard subway extension.
Just ball parking but I see the subway costing about $5 billion less the province's original billion or so for the LRT + $300million from the feds. Add overruns and such and it looks like $4 billion from the City may be necessary. Without help from higher up (or the private sector, unicorns or fairy dust), that's a 6% or so property tax hike and that's just Sheppard.
 
Solid Snake said:
An extension to Victoria Park is a good idea. An extension to Agincourt in a regional transit context (merge Leslie/Oriole with Agincourt GO offering frequent service) where GO, TTC and the City of Toronto would wish to make a transit hub with more density would make sense. No wonder our transit lines are saturated, everybody's going in the same area for work and entertainment. There needs to be more options for employers to set up shop besides Bay street and along Yonge street. If the Danforth line went to Finch, diverting the Sheppard line past Agincourt to go along Finch East would make sense.
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This is an incredibly short sighted idea. The DRL will eventually reach Don Mills and Sheppard. When that does happen, someone from east of VicPark would need to transfer twice to get to the DRL. Just make Don Mills Station the transfer point for the eventual Relief Line, Sheppard Subway and LRT.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
This is an incredibly short sighted idea. The DRL will eventually reach Don Mills and Sheppard. When that does happen, someone from east of VicPark would need to transfer twice to get to the DRL. Just make Don Mills Station the transfer point for the eventual Relief Line, Sheppard Subway and LRT.
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That's just wishful thinking. So we do nothing until the subway gets to Sheppard? I did say a true LRT built like the Neptis Report suggested *could* work.
 
Solid Snake said:
That's just wishful thinking.
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The most likely alignment for the Relief Line is along Don Mills and then to Downtown. Eventually this line will have to be extended north. The only place to go is north on Don Mills to Sheppard. Rapid transit on Don Mills (presumably an extension of the Relief Line) is actually something that Metrolinx is actively studying.

This isn't wishful thinking. It's simply acknowledging that the Relief Line will have to continue north on Don Mills to Sheppard when it's inevitable extension does happen. To not make contingencies for it would be foolish.

Solid Snake said:
So we do nothing until the subway gets to Sheppard
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There are things we can do that don't involve wasting money on overbuilding even more transit infrastructure on Sheppard.
 
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