TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[BurlOak]

Here is the Kelly Compromise for the Sheppard subway by Councilor and now Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/27/deputy-mayor-pitching-kelly-compromise-for-scarborough-subway

Essentially, he suggests building the less expensive Province Subway to SRT along the SRT route, and then building the Sheppard subway from Don Mills to STC. Any money left over, which Kelly thinks is significant, would go to the DRL.

Not that I think it is much of a compromise, but I was curious how the Sheppard Subway was going to get across highway 404. From the Chong Report ( www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-44984.pdf ), there were two options shown - one with the Consumers Station a few hundred metres south of Sheppard (on Yorklands Blvd) and one with the station directly on Sheppard. Unfortunately, the alignment drawings are missing for the portion over the 404.

The option with the station directly on Sheppard shows a 320m radius curve to the East of the Consumers station - although it looks to me it could have been a bit more gradual.
The option with the station on Yorklands Blvd shows a 400m radius curve to the West of the Consumers station - but this seems to cross 404 at a bad angle and I cannot imagine how it would join Don Mills Station.
I am guessing both these follow an alignment somewhat south of the Sheppard/404 bridge.

I am not certain, but I think the LRT would go just north of the Sheppard/404 bridge and have a tighter (+/- 200m) curve to get back onto Sheppard.

If Kelly really wanted a compromise, he would suggest just putting Sheppard on hold and moving the money to the DRL.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Here is the Kelly Compromise for the Sheppard subway by Councilor and now Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/27/deputy-mayor-pitching-kelly-compromise-for-scarborough-subway

Essentially, he suggests building the less expensive Province Subway to SRT along the SRT route, and then building the Sheppard subway from Don Mills to STC. Any money left over, which Kelly thinks is significant, would go to the DRL.

Not that I think it is much of a compromise, but I was curious how the Sheppard Subway was going to get across highway 404. From the Chong Report ( www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-44984.pdf ), there were two options shown - one with the Consumers Station a few hundred metres south of Sheppard (on Yorklands Blvd) and one with the station directly on Sheppard. Unfortunately, the alignment drawings are missing for the portion over the 404.

The option with the station directly on Sheppard shows a 320m radius curve to the East of the Consumers station - although it looks to me it could have been a bit more gradual.
The option with the station on Yorklands Blvd shows a 400m radius curve to the West of the Consumers station - but this seems to cross 404 at a bad angle and I cannot imagine how it would join Don Mills Station.
I am guessing both these follow an alignment somewhat south of the Sheppard/404 bridge.

I am not certain, but I think the LRT would go just north of the Sheppard/404 bridge and have a tighter (+/- 200m) curve to get back onto Sheppard.

If Kelly really wanted a compromise, he would suggest just putting Sheppard on hold and moving the money to the DRL.

Both Subways could be built above ground. That would save even more money.

 

[Forgotten]

Any money left over, which Kelly thinks is significant, would go to the DRL.

You can stop there because Kelly is an idiot and wrong.

 

[BurlOak]

You can stop there because Kelly is an idiot and wrong.

His idea of compomise seems to involve him getting everything that he wants.

If I were on the Ford side, I would want the compromise where:

SRT is connected to ECLRT (no transfer).
ECLRT is elevated through Scarborough (grade-separated) - use half of Federal $660M.
Use SkyTrain vehicles for this new line - they must be grade separated.
SRT is extended to Malvern (transit provided to more people) - use other half of Federal $660M.

Then cancel SELRT - Savings of $1.0B. State that we need to see the effect of SRT on travel paterns before we commit to Sheppard.
cancel FWLRT - Savings of $1.2B. State that we need to see the effect of the Spadina Subway extension on travel paterns before we commit to Finch.

Use this $2.2B, along with the City property tax increase - which is somewhere between $300M and $1.0B - to put towards the DRL.

Ford got his subway to STC, the Eglinton one - and he cancelled all in-median LRT's.
By using SkyTrain, he ensure the entire Eglinton will be grade separated - even extensions. He also cancels the Conlins Yard, which would reduce the chances of the SELRT being built in the future.

The other side gets a very large sum of money to begin the DRL - maybe close to $3B. (Hopefully a bit of this could be used to build the DRL station at Eglinton together with the ECLRT station). The Sheppard and Finch money would only start to be spent in 2017 and 2018 (due to Provincial Government timelines), so there would be no real delay in spending the money with this scenario. For Ford, this is another subway, so he would not be too upset about it. The non Ford side would also have a difficult time rejecting this proposal since they have been stating for some time that the number one priority is the DRL - this forces them to put their vote where their mouths are.

 

[innsertnamehere]

There is absolutely no reason to use ICTS on the line, it would only further delay Eglinton.

 

[BurlOak]

There is absolutely no reason to use ICTS on the line, it would only further delay Eglinton.

Reasons:

1. SkyTrain would reduce the SRT closure from 3 to 4 years to 8 to 12 months - about a factor of 4.
2. Compared to the B-D Subway Extension, the existing LRT vehicle purchase can be altered to SkyTrain for no (minimal) penalty, compared to cancelling the order outright - something Metrolinx has not even hinted at what the cost might be. (Understandably so, since you do not want to suggest an amount that Bombarider should demand for the cancelation).
3. In this scenario where Ford would be moving +/-$3.0B from the suburbs to Downtown, at least he could say he stopped the LRT "streetcars".

 

[innsertnamehere]

1. it would also extend the opening of the ECLRT by at least 3 years as it goes through a complete redesign
2. How so? it is no different than transferring purchases from Bombardier LRT cars to Bombardier Subway cars.
3. this makes no sense whatsoever. nobody in their right mind would openly say this is a "plus", probably not even ford. He didn't give a crap that they were LRT cars when the ECLRT was completely buried.

 

[BurlOak]

1. it would also extend the opening of the ECLRT by at least 3 years as it goes through a complete redesign
2. How so? it is no different than transferring purchases from Bombardier LRT cars to Bombardier Subway cars.
3. this makes no sense whatsoever. nobody in their right mind would openly say this is a "plus", probably not even ford. He didn't give a crap that they were LRT cars when the ECLRT was completely buried.

1. The ECLRT is set to open in 2020. The tunnelled portion is by far the part on the critical path. Even with 3 years of planning, that still gives 4 years of construction (for about 5.5km of work) and this elevated portion would still not be governing the opening. By comparisson, the 20 km long Canada Line took 4 years to build.
2. But the talk with both the City and Province Subway routes are that no subway cars are needed. Metrolinx did mention that the cost of cancellation would be borne by the City.
3. Even if Ford does not announce it, I imagine he would realize that LRT vehicles could be returned to the median without too much trouble. Back 2.5 years ago, he fealt more in control and thought as Mayor he could prevent the line from going in the median. Now he would need some more assurances since he must realize that things can turn quickly

 

[innsertnamehere]

1. yes, but the tunnelling will have to be delayed so the stations, track work, and train yard can be redesigned to handle completely different vehicles. you will have to redesign the power delivery system, everything. the only thing that could stay would essentially be the tunnel size and tunnel liners.
2.there is no way you can operate 7.6km of track without new subway cars, they are saying they need more for the yonge extension which is the same length so I have a feeling they need them for the sheppard extension regardless, the costs of completely redesigning the ECLRT will more than offset this.
3. still makes no sense, even if Ford *might* support the idea. From my understanding Ford considers ICTS to be LRT anyways (he calls the RT LRT). The entire idea that meeting talking points should be considered competent transit planning is absurd.

 

[RPM]

another hurdle cleared

 

[gweed123]

another hurdle cleared

How so? Ford may have gotten the Bloor-Danforth extension built, but it's highly unlikely the group of councillors that put the Scarborough Subway over the top will vote for an extension that would be a white elephant for decades to come.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

another hurdle cleared

shut up.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How so? Ford may have gotten the Bloor-Danforth extension built, but it's highly unlikely the group of councillors that put the Scarborough Subway over the top will vote for an extension that would be a white elephant for decades to come.

We don't even know if that is going to stc or sheppard

 

[nfitz]

another hurdle cleared

Another hurdle made. With the Danforth line now extending to Scarborough Centre, and up to Sheppard, there'd be even less demand on the Sheppard Subway from Scarborough Centre, at the peak hour (westbound in the AM).

 

[rbt]

We don't even know if that is going to stc or sheppard

Sheppard provided the estimated cost is close.

The Fords voted in favour of the recommended taxation scheme (1.6% phased in over 3 years) which is sufficient to fully build out the City's proposed alignment to Sheppard.

Very few amendments were applied. The amendment to the taxation scheme was rejected.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.CC39.5


Key point: The Ford's voted in favour of the tax increase. If they both voted against the tax increase, the vote would have been 24 to 20 in favour of the LRT option. I'm glad they did that but find it very interesting seeing as they were strongly against the tax increase yesterday.

It is going to be much harder for him to be openly against Metrolinx's proposed taxation plan for building transit.