TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[sixrings]

I wonder how many (few) of these enhancements would be needed before the public would support the Big Move. Maybe $500M for Sheppard to Agincourt, $300M for elevated ECLRT and maybe something else. The inability to budge from the Transit City plan, that was soundly defeated at the polls, has led to the entire $50B Big Move being in jeopardy. A few percent extra, which is almost within a rounding error, could have easily led to some greater acceptance to increasing revenues (taxes) for transit.

My position with Sheppard is that in 20 years when the subway starts to fall apart and it needs serious upgrades then they can convert it to LRT. As for Eglinton please don't go around changing the plan again. As much as I would love Eglinton with less stops I am not willing to wait longer with certain delays that would inevitably happen.

 

[nfitz]

The inability to budge from the Transit City plan, that was soundly defeated at the polls...

Soundly? Uh, what? Candidates supporting Transit City got more than 50% in the last mayoral election.

Let's not make up stuff.

 

[BurlOak]

Soundly? Uh, what? Candidates supporting Transit City got more than 50% in the last mayoral election.

Let's not make up stuff.

Sorry, I mixed up Thomson's plan with Smitherman. However, if you add Thomon's support to Ford's numbers, it is above half.

I also think that Ford got all his support because of his top 2 promises - spending and transit. I think Smitherman got some support for a whole host of reasons, including simply being articulate

 

[BurlOak]

As for Eglinton please don't go around changing the plan again. As much as I would love Eglinton with less stops I am not willing to wait longer with certain delays that would inevitably happen.

The thing is; the reason it is being delayed is because there are no changes to the plan. Nobody (not Ford or Stintz or over half the Councillors who voted for the B-D extension instead) is championing the plan since it is not popular. This has allowed the Province to continually delay the project.

 

[andrewpmk]

Soundly? Uh, what? Candidates supporting Transit City got more than 50% in the last mayoral election.

Let's not make up stuff.

Smitherman was on the fence really. He supported extending the Sheppard subway west but building light rail east (???). Only Pantalone was really in favour of Transit City.

 

[sixrings]

Sorry, I mixed up Thomson's plan with Smitherman. However, if you add Thomon's support to Ford's numbers, it is above half.

I also think that Ford got all his support because of his top 2 promises - spending and transit. I think Smitherman got some support for a whole host of reasons, including simply being articulate

As a Sarah Thomson supporter during her election campaign (not during her dumb youtube videos) I think it is very important to note that her and Fords plans were always worlds apart. Although a conservative Sarah acknowledged that the only way to get transit was to fund it through something (for her it was tolls). Fords plan was a map with lines on it paid for by an imaginary private sector. Sarahs plans could have been implemented. Fords plan was DOA.

 

[nfitz]

However, if you add Thomon's support to Ford's numbers, it is above half.

Ford got 47.1%. Thomson got 0.2%. Combined that's 47.3%. Combined Smitherman and Panatalone got 47.3%.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Smitherman was on the fence really. He supported extending the Sheppard subway west but building light rail east (???). Only Pantalone was really in favour of Transit City.

Smitherman was in favour of Transit City, and he also proposed buliding subways, including extending the B-D line to STC.

(From Transit Toronto)

If George Smitherman becomes Mayor of the City of Toronto, he would build $7 billion of transit projects.

Smitherman’s plan to “get Toronto moving again” would connect the Yonge subway to Downsview station, extend planned subway and light rail lines and add billions of city funds to the funding that the province of Ontario has pledged over the next decade to build the transit projects.

His plan has two phases.
Highlights of phase one - lines operating by 2015

For phase one, Smitherman proposes:

extending the Spadina leg of the 1 Yonge - University - Spadina subway to the Pan-Am Games venue at York University and the Sheppard East light rail Transit City line to the Pan-Am Games venue at the University of Toronto’s Scarborough campus. (Various governments have already funded the Spadina and Sheppard projects and they are already underway, but Smitherman proposes earlier finish dates. The new proposal is extending the Sheppard line to U of T and that would cost $240-million.)
finishing the Queen’s Quay waterfront light rail transit line from Union Station to the Portlands. This would cost $225-million.

Highlights of phase two - lines operating by 2020

For phase two, Smitherman proposes:

extending the Etobicoke - Finch West light rail Transit City line from Finch West Station to Highway 27, beyond the current terminal at Humber College to include Etobicoke General Hospital, the Woodbine Centre and the Woodbine Racetrack. Estimated cost: $250-million.
building a Sheppard West Subway from Yonge Street to Downsview Station. Estimated cost: $1.3-billion.
replacing the 3 Scarborough rapid transit line with an above-grade subway beyond Scarborough Town Centre. Estimated cost of converting the RT to subway: $535-million.
extending the Eglinton - Crosstown light rail Transit City line beyond Black Creek Drive to Weston Road. Estimated cost: $300-million.
extending the 2 Bloor - Danforth subway to Sherway Gardens. Estimated cost: $1-billion.

 

[JWBF]

It would be nice to poll the existing riders, giving them 3 options:

1) Extend the subway to Agincourt, and build LRT or BRT east of it.
2) Convert the subway to LRT and build a continuous LRT line, but then the existing subway will have to be closed for 4-6 months for the conversion.
3) Leave the existing subway as is, and build LRT east of Don Mills, with a single-platform transfer.

I imagine that the majority of riders will prefer Option 1. But if Option 1 is too expensive, they will prefer Option 3 since it is less disruptive than Option 2.

"1)" is a good destination, especially if you have some sort of rapid transit on Kennedy. I prefer "2)", transfer points I think are the one major problem.

 

[nhui06]

"1)" is a good destination, especially if you have some sort of rapid transit on Kennedy. I prefer "2)", transfer points I think are the one major problem.

Not sure if 2.) will be acceptable to voters though. People will see converting a subway (good) to an LRT (bad) to be a waste of money (no matter what the actual benefits are; remember perception is more important to get voters these days then actual facts). It will be hard for a politician to sell that (esp those who work between Yonge and Don Mills).

1.) will be too expensive; distance from Don Mills to Agincourt is around 5 KM I think, and say it costs around $300 million for 1 KM of subway, we are talking about $1.5B to do it.

What is more affordable is to use that roughly $1B allocated to the SELRT and extend the subway to Warden and Sheppard (around $900 million), then use the rest of the money to widen Sheppard Ave to 3 lanes each side all the way to Markham Rd (where the Scarb RT will stop at), then put dedicated bus lanes (like Don Mills) there; maybe run the new arctic-long buses on Sheppard instead. This is a win-win; Vic Park and Warden are very busy streets right now with a lot of residential apartments/condos between Sheppard and Finch. Also, Sheppard is already primed for a road widening (i.e. the bridge that was recently built over Sheppard for the Agincourt GO station). Drivers will like this since they have more lanes (new bus lane during rush hour will free up the road a bit).

 

[JWBF]

Not sure if 2.) will be acceptable to voters though. People will see converting a subway (good) to an LRT (bad) to be a waste of money (no matter what the actual benefits are; remember perception is more important to get voters these days then actual facts). It will be hard for a politician to sell that (esp those who work between Yonge and Don Mills).

1.) will be too expensive; distance from Don Mills to Agincourt is around 5 KM I think, and say it costs around $300 million for 1 KM of subway, we are talking about $1.5B to do it.

What is more affordable is to use that roughly $1B allocated to the SELRT and extend the subway to Warden and Sheppard (around $900 million), then use the rest of the money to widen Sheppard Ave to 3 lanes each side all the way to Markham Rd (where the Scarb RT will stop at), then put dedicated bus lanes (like Don Mills) there; maybe run the new arctic-long buses on Sheppard instead. This is a win-win; Vic Park and Warden are very busy streets right now with a lot of residential apartments/condos between Sheppard and Finch. Also, Sheppard is already primed for a road widening (i.e. the bridge that was recently built over Sheppard for the Agincourt GO station). Drivers will like this since they have more lanes (new bus lane during rush hour will free up the road a bit).

That's the thing, there will always be opposition, including, I am sure, a NIMBY faction. The problem is that transit should not be a chip used for elections.

True, Kennedy and Sheppard would be expensive, however, if there was a hub and a Kennedy RT (probably elevated), then it would make sense. With all the talk about east-west transit, I think we need to think about something north-south other than a "DRL".

I wholly agree with you, I prefer the Warden extension. There has to be an extension for Consumers Road (which is the most expensive), and ending at Vic Park, makes no sense to me.

Perception is important, but perceptions can be changed by putting out proper information. The Fords pick on St. Clair IMHO because it does a good job. Lack of transfer points would work against the negative propaganda towards "streetcars".

Having dedicated busses like Don Mills is a good idea, a better idea would be a full BRT that could be upgraded to an LRT in the future.

The Arctic bendy buses are always a good idea, unless you lower/raise stuff to accomodate double deckers.

 

[BurlOak]

True, Kennedy and Sheppard would be expensive, however, if there was a hub and a Kennedy RT (probably elevated), then it would make sense. With all the talk about east-west transit, I think we need to think about something north-south other than a "DRL".

I wholly agree with you, I prefer the Warden extension. There has to be an extension for Consumers Road (which is the most expensive), and ending at Vic Park, makes no sense to me.

I am not sure if a Kennedy RT is needed, or do you mean a Markham-Union-Brampton (Pearson) frequent service GO line - essentially a wide U. The true DRL would be more like a "J" going from Seneca College to Downtown (via Don Mills, Pape, etc.) and back up to maybe Dundas West.

I am not sure if it is really that way, but population density maps I have seen seem to show the same density all the way to Kennedy.

 

[JWBF]

I am not sure if a Kennedy RT is needed, or do you mean a Markham-Union-Brampton (Pearson) frequent service GO line - essentially a wide U. The true DRL would be more like a "J" going from Seneca College to Downtown (via Don Mills, Pape, etc.) and back up to maybe Dundas West.

I am not sure if it is really that way, but population density maps I have seen seem to show the same density all the way to Kennedy.

Yes, I should have explained "RT", in this case anything that is separated, either GO, DRL, or other express service to feed an existing line. We need something that can go north of Steeles.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I am a strong supporter of changing the Stouffville, Kitchener, and Lakeshore corridors to more urban rail style service with 5 or 10 minute frequencies with smaller single level electrified trains. It would act as a sort of "express" service to move people long distances around the GTA (which is a corridor of continuously urbanized area 130km long) which they would then transfer to local services to get to their final destination. Stouffville should be first, as Markham has been asking nicely for the service and is extremely underserved by other current transit plans. (plus it is my GO line haha)

 

[nfitz]

I am a strong supporter of changing the Stouffville, Kitchener, and Lakeshore corridors to more urban rail style service with 5 or 10 minute frequencies with smaller single level electrified trains. It would act as a sort of "express" service to move people long distances around the GTA (which is a corridor of continuously urbanized area 130km long) which they would then transfer to local services to get to their final destination. Stouffville should be first, as Markham has been asking nicely for the service and is extremely underserved by other current transit plans. (plus it is my GO line haha)

Might be great, except for rush-hour service into Union. Lakeshore West already has 12-car double-decker trains at about every 10 minutes during peak hour in and out of Union. And demand is expected to grow.

Do you have different equipment for off-peak?