TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[andrewpmk]

Eglinton should be built as planned, completely segregated, however completely underground is not necessary (especially between Leslie and Victoria Park)

While i would ideally like to see a sheppard subway, i know that it is not practical for today's tight funds. As a result, i think we should build 2 incomplete transit city lines and put them together...

Don Mills LRT from Don Mills station (underground connection into mezzanine) to Finch Ave.
Finch East LRT from Don Mills to Neilson Rd.
**Optional** Nielson extension from Finch Ave south to Tapscott (Malvern Town Centre)

What this would do is provide an immediate solution to transit in the east along a proven corridor with ample road ROW.
The only portion that would lose traffic lanes would be on Don Mills road from Sheppard to Finch (And even that is optional because they could do a viva hwy 7 style layout 6 + 2)

The reach of this route would be far greater than any sheppard subway and the route would be more useful east of Kennedy than the old Sheppard LRT...Because lets face it...an LRT through a purely suburban Sheppard Ave from Kennedy/Midland onwards is no different than putting an LRT on some random suburban arterial in the 905.

A sheppard subway is necessary for the future but today we cannot afford it. Yet the east needs transit relief now. This line would solve all these problems without sacrificing future transit plans for the long-term (Sheppard Subway to STC)

Along with this Finch East LRT from Don Mills station, widening Sheppard Ave from Victoria Park to Kennedy to 6 lanes (4 + 2 bus lanes) would provide immediate relief on Sheppard and continue to build ridership along the route.

The way Scarborough (and the east) is going, i think in the long term future we can justify having a rapid transit on Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch (and Hwy 7 in Markham)

Also another project that should not be overlooked would be the eventual connection of Finch West LRT (from keele) to Finch East LRT (at don mills), but that also should only be based on ridership.

If we are going to build a Finch East LRT I think that we should run it all the way to Yonge in phase 1, connecting with the Finch West LRT, and forget about running it to Don Mills/Sheppard. The traffic patterns on the Finch East bus quite clearly suggest that most of the riders don't want to go to Don Mills/Sheppard.

Then we can later build a Sheppard subway extension, east to STC and west to Downsview, and in the long term west along Sheppard to Weston Rd, through the park, and then along the hydro corridor southwest to the airport. I think that this route is badly needed to deal with chronic 401 congestion problems and the growth of North York Centre, but as you say, funding the Sheppard and Eglinton lines at the same time is prohibitively expensive.

 

[sixrings]

finch lrt was my fav. and it could have made a good crosstown route. i always thought it could turn south between kennedy and midland on the go train tracks and connect to either stc or kennedy station.

 

[Rainforest]

If we are going to build a Finch East LRT I think that we should run it all the way to Yonge in phase 1, connecting with the Finch West LRT, and forget about running it to Don Mills/Sheppard. The traffic patterns on the Finch East bus quite clearly suggest that most of the riders don't want to go to Don Mills/Sheppard.

Most of Finch East riders want to go to North York or to Yonge subway. With the existing bus service scheme, there is little reason for them to go there via Sheppard if the majority of buses stay on Finch till they reach Yonge. However if the LRT line goes to Don Mills and a good interchange is built there, the riders probably would not object. At least, this is a reasonable suggestion and the riders can be asked to evaluate it before the project starts.

Also, running the line to Don Mills will be cheaper than getting to Yonge. Finch East between Yonge and Don Mills is not very wide; the clearances between the buildings are sufficient for the 4 + 2 lanes, but the clearances between the property lines are not; quite a few frontyards would have to be bought by the city.

 

[44 North]

Then we can later build a Sheppard subway extension, east to STC and west to Downsview, and in the long term west along Sheppard to Weston Rd, through the park, and then along the hydro corridor southwest to the airport. I think that this route is badly needed to deal with chronic 401 congestion problems and the growth of North York Centre, but as you say, funding the Sheppard and Eglinton lines at the same time is prohibitively expensive.

I completely agree with the idea of a crosstown Finch LRT. The combined daily ridership for both Finch E and W is almost 100,000.

However, your idea of a Sheppard extension reaching the airport is completely insane. So effing what if the 401 is heavily congested?! Many of the vehicles on it are not even from the 416. Hell, many aren't even from the 905. Why the f*ck should we spend $20+ Billion building a 40km long commuter subway line? The 401 might be crowded, but it's not a destination.

Using congestion on the 401 as an argument for a building a subway does not work. That's a regional issue - i.e for GO. Not TTC. The TTC should not be in the business of building sprawling, multi-storey parking garages at stations. Nor should it be in the business of ferrying long-distance commuters. When Eglinton is complete (hopefully to Pearson), we'll have two cross-city subways. And if a Finch LRT is built... there should be no reason to extend Sheppard one inch.

 

[44 North]

How about we extend Sheppard to Pickering and Mississauga, eliminate all but four stations, then label it "GO".

 

[drum118]

How about we extend Sheppard to Pickering and Mississauga, eliminate all but four stations, then label it "GO".

On my 2006 map, I have shown and call for a line going from Pickering Town Centre to Sq One in Mississauga by the airport.

Based on your comment, stations would be Pickering, (Don Mills), Yonge, Downsview, Airport and Sq One.

By rights, you need more to make the line having a cost ratio to support it in the first place.

The idea of the Sheppard Line replacing traffic on the 401 is off the wall, as most 401 drivers are going to places not service by the Sheppard line in the first place. Then they are going places not service by transit in the first place or it would take a day or 2 to get there using the various transit system if they connect in the first place.

When one looks at the ridership of lines being built in the US at this time, all east-west lines of TTC carry more riders on buses than most of these lines.

If you look 10-50 years down the road, LRT are needed on all major transit routes of TTC to handle the ridership, but most of all, operation cost. There will be a few routes LRT will not be required on.

If one looks at a traffic study, it will show you how much extra time will be require for increase traffic. If the increase delay time is 30 seconds and it a 3 lane road, you will have an extra 45 cars trying to cross that intersection. For 2 lanes its 30 cars. At some point, you will max out the lanes if we continue not to do anything about traffic.

 

[LAz]

When Ford said "the people have spoken", he really should have said "a few loud, angry Scarberians have spoken".

No, it's just that people in the fringes of Toronto do not think that it's a good investment because they prefer cars. If they will get something they want something that's top notch, like a subway.

The ultimate root of their argument: they want Sheppard to be bustling like downtown.

You on drugs bro? Sounds like they're quite bad. Gimme double of watchu taking!
People who want expansion on Sheppard in general want to have a better alternatives to the automobile.

Just like 95% of all rapid transit systems around the world, we need more lines radiating out from the core. Not piecemeal feeder lines to make residents of former boroughs feel satisfied with their communities.

The key to real mass transit is having lines that are not only downtown centric. It's a failure to plan for only downtown centric lines. We need other lines.

I will add this article that show what an LRT can do since the Sheppard subway will not. There still a bidding war going on to get the line extended to various areas with an extension to get under way shortly.

Yeah, in a town where there is very limited mass transit it's no surprise that ridership will increase. But come on, what sane person will compare phoenix transportation with toronto's? I mean, our bus lines have more riders than their LRT, if I'm not mistaken. Phoenix is a shithole when it comes to being ranked as a top city. It's a suburban wasteland.

That said, a full Metro increases transit more than LRT does, every single time.

And after you've wiped your butt what ridership number do have for Sheppard extended? The highest hourly ridership for Sheppard I've seen, extended to STC, is still only about 8,000. And that was assuming that the current SRT remained. I'd think that may be lower once it's a one-seat ride from STC to Eglinton/Yonge.

I think that 8,000 was the report in the sheppard subway EA. At any rate, 8,000 is a fine figure. There is no reason to be ashamed of such ridership figures for a subway. We should embrace that rather than shun it for a stupid LRT.

Can you quantify how the picture changes?

You basically get a whole lot more people and a whole lot more transit riders in the area.
And a testament to that is our subway system. It was built like that. Toronto aggressively expanded it to places where ridership was not overwhelming. But it's the coordination of land use and transit which is why such planning succeeded. It's a bitter pill to the free market libertarians.

However, when you're dealing with very limited funds, putting more transit in more places seems like the better bet.

They are not concerned with money. They are conerned with LRT over Subway because some new urbanist bafoons said that LRT is so pretty. Once one buys into a religion they can not see the contradictions no matter how hard they try.

That line is 32km long and it carries as many people on a weekday as the 5.5km Sheppard line.

Good for Phoenix and all but... wow. That's comparable per-km ridership to the Wellesley bus.

LOLZERS. LOLZERs.


edit: LOLZERS SOME MORE.



and

Using congestion on the 401 as an argument for a building a subway does not work.

Come on man, how did they build San Francisco's BART? It was built only because of the interests to alleviate automobile traffic. Mass transit was not in their plan, it was only out of concern for cars on their over-congested roads. The system sucks btw, because the whole scheme of things heavily prioritizes cars over transit.

 

[44 North]

Based on your comment, stations would be Pickering, (Don Mills), Yonge, Downsview, Airport and Sq One.

Well, I was being facetious. I'm trying to show how ridiculous it would be to build a cross-city subway along the northern fringe of Toronto when we'll already have Eglinton and B/D. That is more than enough. It's not addressing where 80% of transit users are going. There needs to be more lines radiating out from the core a la Berlin, Chicago, NY, London, Paris, San Francisco, Boston, Washington, Moscow etc etc etc.

 

[44 North]

No, it's just that people in the fringes of Toronto do not think that it's a good investment because they prefer cars. If they will get something they want something that's top notch, like a subway.

A subway that stops at a Scarborough shopping mall is not a good investment for reaching the fringe of the city. What about the eastern half of Scarborough? Who really cares about getting people out of cars when the current system we have has complete sections at-capacity? Yonge, almost all the streetcars downtown, Dufferin, Finch etc. Worrying about adding more people should be the least of our priorities.

Light rail can do a lot more and reach much further than a subway. That will get people out of cars. Not short, expensive extensions to shopping malls.

Metro systems around the world are downtown-centric because that's where the majority of transit users are headed every morning. BART is a great example. All their lines pass through SF's core. You don't see a BART feeder line built along the edge of Oakland, do you?

LRTs are great because of their ability to be both subway and street-grade rail. Subways can't. That's the benefit of Light Rail...we can play catch-up and connect the edges of the city without bankrupting ourselves or raising fares to $10 to pay for poorly-used subways.

 

[gweed123]

Well, I was being facetious. I'm trying to show how ridiculous it would be to build a cross-city subway along the northern fringe of Toronto when we'll already have Eglinton and B/D. That is more than enough. It's not addressing where 80% of transit users are going. There needs to be more lines radiating out from the core a la Berlin, Chicago, NY, London, Paris, San Francisco, Boston, Washington, Moscow etc etc etc.

Isn't the Crosstown GO line supposed to follow a relatively similar route? I mean, you can easily start it in Scarborough (or even northern Pickering if you want), and run it to Cooksville. No need to tunnel, the rail is already there.

LRTs are great because of their ability to be both subway and street-grade rail. Subways can't. That's the benefit of Light Rail...we can play catch-up and connect the edges of the city without bankrupting ourselves or raising fares to $10 to pay for poorly-used subways.

Or you can build BRT if you want 3x as much of it for the same cost. I really don't get why people automatically assume that the most cost-efficient option is LRT. Especially when you're talking about peak levels that are under 4,000 pphpd for 90% of the routes that people are thinking of.

If you want to blanket the suburbs in more efficient and cost-effective transit, BRT is the way to go. Once you've blanketed it, you can select key corridors to upgrade to LRT.

 

[44 North]

Isn't the Crosstown GO line supposed to follow a relatively similar route? I mean, you can easily start it in Scarborough (or even northern Pickering if you want), and run it to Cooksville. No need to tunnel, the rail is already there.

Yes, that would much faster, cheaper, optimal and realistic than extending Sheppard to either ends of the city. People want our subways to be commuter rail, when in reality they should be looking to GO for cross-city travel.

Or you can build BRT if you want 3x as much of it for the same cost. I really don't get why people automatically assume that the most cost-efficient option is LRT. Especially when you're talking about peak levels that are under 4,000 pphpd for 90% of the routes that people are thinking of.

If you want to blanket the suburbs in more efficient and cost-effective transit, BRT is the way to go. Once you've blanketed it, you can select key corridors to upgrade to LRT.

Exactly! And considering Sheppard had the lowest projected ridership of the Transit City routes, it was lucky to be a candidate for LRT. But "the people have spoken", LRT is not good enough - let alone BRT. So now we have to wait 3 years before someone with actual knowledge about transit gets elected and the Sheppard Subway can go back to being nothing more than a mistake unworthy of being touched.

 

[gweed123]

Yes, that would much faster, cheaper, optimal and realistic than extending Sheppard to either ends of the city. People want our subways to be commuter rail, when in reality they should be looking to GO for cross-city travel.

The only problem with the GO corridors as they stand right now is that the land uses surrounding them are less than optimal. This is understandable however, because it was (and to a certain extent still is) advantageous for industrial and certain commercial uses to be located adjacent to freight lines. I believe in order to truly maximize the potential of GO, that the lands around existing and proposed stations need to each have a Master Plan created for them, one that details denser and more diverse uses than the warehouses that currently exist. You don't have to redevelop along the entirety of the lines, just at stations.

Exactly! And considering Sheppard had the lowest projected ridership of the Transit City routes, it was lucky to be a candidate for LRT. But "the people have spoken", LRT is not good enough - let alone BRT. So now we have to wait 3 years before someone with actual knowledge about transit gets elected and the Sheppard Subway can go back to being nothing more than a mistake unworthy of being touched.

I think what people want most is speed. They consider subways to be fast, and LRT (commonly seen as being streetcars) as being slow. I envision the GTAs future transportation network as being a series of hubs and spokes. Most of the GO stations will be hubs, which will have multiple routes coverging at them (Dundas West and Main Street are perfect examples of this, each of them will have multiple GO routes, a subway, a streetcar route, and a whole host of bus routes). From there, the spokes will be high frequency, moderate capacity feeder routes that radiate out, most of which will run between different hubs. BRT will handle the low-medium ridership routes, with LRT handling the upper end. And of course, subways will run the really high ridership routes.

You can't cover everything with one mode. No one mode is a magic bullet, especially for a region the size of the GTA. With a smaller city, you can get away with an OC Transpo-style Transitway, where the same technology choice, just with a bunch of different applications, is effective enough (York Region followed this same model with VIVA: Blanket first, targetted upgrades later). When you try and cover everything with a one-size fits all approach, you end up making a lot of compromises, with the main one being speed vs accessibility. Long haul routes can't have stops every 300m. Local routes can't have stop spacing every 600+m.

Each mode needs a specific purpose, and needs to be designed accordingly. Most importantly though, they need to connect and cover the region in a way that is cost-effective, and that makes sense, and to get people where they want to go quickly, and with a minimum number of transfers.

When I look at Transit City routes, I don't see that clear purpose. Their long-haul commuter routes, but they're also feeder lines. They're meant to have people cover long distances, but there's stops every 600m. They have no clear purpose. They're trying to be too many things at the same time, and as a result, they do none of them very well.

 

[kEiThZ]

A subway that stops at a Scarborough shopping mall is not a good investment for reaching the fringe of the city.

I sick of BS like this. STC is far more than the mall. In fact, hardly anybody going through STC on a regular basis goes into the mall. This is just as moronic as saying that Hurontario in Mississauga is only Square One or that northern Yonge is only about NYCC.

What about the eastern half of Scarborough?

What about it? Guess what? Most of Malvern lives north of Sheppard. And the busiest corridor in the east? Finch. Not Sheppard. And have you ever seen what Sheppard is like beyond Agincourt? Or have you ever taken a drive between Progress and Morningside along Sheppard? Do it and tell me that this strip is worth tens of millions of dollars per km.

Most residents in this area are heading to the core. Sheppard won't do much for them. An extension of the SRT would have. But not the SELRT. And now that the Eglinton LRT is being merged with the SRT, once it reaches Malvern, the case for the SELRT east of Agincourt won't be very strong.

The reality is that the LRT is only really needed to relieve traffic from Agincourt to Don Mills. Beyond that it's a waste.

Who really cares about getting people out of cars when the current system we have has complete sections at-capacity?

Transit City planners certainly weren't all that concerned about getting people out of their cars. Ditto for Metrolinx. They focused on making only one component of your commute faster (the bus ride along Sheppard). They didn't really care about getting you where you want to go faster.

Yonge, almost all the streetcars downtown, Dufferin, Finch etc. Worrying about adding more people should be the least of our priorities.

Can't really do much about it as long as development goals drive transit discussions. When we start talking about moving people using the whole system, then we'll end up with a real sensible sytem where GO trains move people long distances and subways and LRTs and BRTs are used for shorter distances and hooked in and connected to the GO rail network. As of now, we have discussions about spending billions to essentially make somebody's bus ride 10 mins faster.

 

[LAz]

What about the eastern half of Scarborough?

Look man, I have no idea why the LRT promoters imagine us subway-philes imagining subways in eastern Scarborough. We don't. Just because the EA had this ridiculous thing, it doesn't mean that anyone with a sane mind would think of such a thing.
I think there are some plans or something to extend the RT to Malvern or somewhere. At any rate, they'd be happy to be closer to the sheppard subway.

Light rail can do a lot more and reach much further than a subway.

But by using that logic of having to discard a Metro for LRT, then we have to discard LRT for BRT.

Metro systems around the world are downtown-centric because that's where the majority of transit users are headed every morning. BART is a great example. All their lines pass through SF's core. You don't see a BART feeder line built along the edge of Oakland, do you?

Ugh, yeah they are when they are first made. Then they are supposed to expand and whatnot. Take a look at Mexico City's metro system for example, and then say something. Heck, in Moscow they are building the second ring line!

The only reason why I mentioned BART is because it is an utter miserable system. If we look at how metro systems are, then BART is one of the worst ones. Its purpose was not to replace or be competition to the automobile. It is a joke. Of course, it's better that it is there than that it is not... but it's a miserable metro system when you look at other metro systems. It's the example of what sucks.

LRTs are great because of their ability to be both subway and street-grade rail. Subways can't. That's the benefit of Light Rail...we can play catch-up and connect the edges of the city without bankrupting ourselves or raising fares to $10 to pay for poorly-used subways.

Um, no, a Metro is a Metro... above ground, underground, you name it. It is what it is, high capacity and whatnot... LRT is a stupid little slow moving tram. K, thanks.
It's just very stupid to crisscross the city with LRT lines. The people voted for Ford because that idea was just stupid. If things were done decently, then we would have had a full sheppard line by now. It boggles my mind how one could dare want a LRT line on Sheppard rather than a subway on Sheppard. My only explanation is that they do not use it and so they want this inferior stuff.

Or you can build BRT if you want 3x as much of it for the same cost. I really don't get why people automatically assume that the most cost-efficient option is LRT.

That's why I call them LRT fanatics. They're shut in their own little logic, being extremists...

 

[accura407]

What about it? Guess what? Most of Malvern lives north of Sheppard. And the busiest corridor in the east? Finch. Not Sheppard. And have you ever seen what Sheppard is like beyond Agincourt? Or have you ever taken a drive between Progress and Morningside along Sheppard? Do it and tell me that this strip is worth tens of millions of dollars per km.

I really find it confusing/perplexing/downright stupid that most people repeatedly ignore this simple obvious fact. Sheppard from McCowan eastbound is pure suburbia. Wide Right of Way. Trees all around. When i drive through there i feel like i am in the lowest density strip of 905 possible...

Yet Miller wanted to push an LRT through there? Beyond Stupid. Thank GOD SLRT is cancelled and hopefully will never come back again. Sheppard only deserves transit from Don Mills to Midland, the rest can be handled by buses for eternity.

Finch on the other hand is a jam-packed route that is full of riders until around Neilson. The distance between Midland and Neilson is quite large...and that is an entire area that could use LRT rather than standard bus service.

Short Term:
Build LRT from Don Mills Station up Don Mills then down Finch Ave to Neilson (and potentially Malvern town centre)

Medium Term:
Extend Sheppard Subway from Yonge to Downsview

Long Term:
Finish the Sheppard Subway from Don Mills to STC

Finch Ave East from Bathurst to Leslie has very limited right of way and would be quite a challenge to build as an LRT without considerable disruption.
Sheppard should be the corridor of choice in the short term between Don Mills and Dufferin.