TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[LAz]

We have limited funds. They need to be used wisely.

Well, that's why I am for expanding the sheppard subway at the very least a little bit, rather than all the way at once.


edit: Fitty zee, the thing is that we already have something on sheppard while we do not have anything on eglinton or on the DRL. Therefore we have some responsibility towards that.

 

[44 North]

Well, that's why I am for expanding the sheppard subway at the very least a little bit, rather than all the way at once.

There's no point in that. A lot of the capital cost would be eaten up just by the prep work alone. Extending it only to Vic Park may end up costing over a Billion.

 

[LAz]

There's no point in that. A lot of the capital cost would be eaten up just by the prep work alone. Extending it only to Vic Park may end up costing over a Billion.

That cost there sounds ridiculous.

If we connected the line to downsview... that would cost a billion. Taking it to v.p. would be less than 500 million. Perhaps much less if the stations are modest.

 

[gweed123]

That cost there sounds ridiculous.

If we connected the line to downsview... that would cost a billion. Taking it to v.p. would be less than 500 million. Perhaps much less if the stations are modest.

It's not actually that ridiculous of a cost. It's 2km from Don Mills to Vic Park. I would peg the cost as between $600 and $700 million, especially because you would need a lot of bus bays at Vic Park so that it acts as a funnel for the buses in that area.

 

[Justin10000]

The cost to acquire the land will be high too, and there is retail(and a new building) on every corner.

 

[Rainforest]

It's not actually that ridiculous of a cost. It's 2km from Don Mills to Vic Park. I would peg the cost as between $600 and $700 million, especially because you would need a lot of bus bays at Vic Park so that it acts as a funnel for the buses in that area.

The cost to acquire the land will be high too, and there is retail(and a new building) on every corner.

And that's the reason Warden might be a better interim terminus than Vic Park. The fixed start-up and wind-down costs would be divided by 3.5 km versus 2 km, and it might be cheaper to get land for a large bus terminal at Warden. The Vic Park station could then settle for on-street connection, just as Sheppard / Bayview.

In addition, the relatively dense Finch / Warden cluster could then be connected to subway by both the Warden bus and the branch of Finch bus that serves the stretch east of Warden up to Malvern.

 

[gweed123]

And that's the reason Warden might be a better interim terminus than Vic Park. The fixed start-up and wind-down costs would be divided by 3.5 km versus 2 km, and it might be cheaper to get land for a large bus terminal at Warden. The Vic Park station could then settle for on-street connection, just as Sheppard / Bayview.

In addition, the relatively dense Finch / Warden cluster could then be connected to subway by both the Warden bus and the branch of Finch bus that serves the stretch east of Warden up to Malvern.

I would be in favour of this in theory, but then what's stopping us from saying "oh well if we're going to Warden, might as well build it to Agincourt so we can connect with the GO station". Every potential terminus point has its benefits. The question is whether those benefits are worth the added cost.

Personally for me it's either only to Vic Park or all the way to Agincourt. That way a proper intermodal terminal can be built there, for connection with the Stouffville line, and whatever other types of service they decide to route through there.

 

[kEiThZ]

STC is a mall, a few apartments, and some government offices.

I remember being a high schooler not too long ago and thinking the same thing about Yonge north York Mills.... And do you remember what Sheppard from Yonge to Don Mills was like before the subway? Now consider how much STC has developed without any additional mass transit infrastructure.

And oddly enough what you label as a "few" is somehow consider a key node in "Places to grow". Have you tried telling the Province and Metrolinx that they are bonkers?

The SELRT would have connected to the S(L)RT in Malvern, and provided more benefits than a subway.

Marginally so. Most SRT riders are heading to the core. Why would they go down Sheppard? And if you're going down Sheppard, it's a valid question to ask whether a billion dollars is worthwhile to save 15 mins in the best case scenario (starting at Morningside) with far less savings the further west you get.

As a portion of a northern cross-town you'd be stuck with lrt-subway-bus to get across the city.

Have YOU ever driven down Sheppard.

Every weekend and many days off when I'm home with the folks in Malvern. When was the last time you drove down Sheppard, east of Agincourt.

If you know the area that well, can you tell me the name of the bar that used to be across from the Chinese cultural centre?

I am amazed people are advocating a subway there.

None of us who support a subway, support it as a one-for-one replacement for an LRT. Nor do we see it as necessary for the growth of STC. I, for one, see a subway along Sheppard as a reliever in no small part to the 401, a way to get across Toronto without having to go as far south as Bloor (or Eglinton in the future). Today the alternative is mostly buses. And even the LRT would not have improved this trip all that much.

I am readily willing to submit that this is not a priority for the city. Let them build the DRL first. Heck, let them extend the SRT up to Malvern proper. That would do more than the Sheppard LRT. In the long term though, there needs to be a discussion on how to move people across town.

There is little reason to build a subway to that area. It`ll just reinforce how bad transit planning in Toronto is.

I'm curious what the bar has to be for density and jobs to get a subway going? Would you have applied the same standard years ago to the various YUS extensions (like to say Downsview for example or going north beyond Steeles in the future?). And again, you suffer from a serious lack of imagination. Those of us who do support subways, aren't advocating something solely to support STC. We envision this line as part of a network that facilitates long distance travel across the city, and provides a real alternative to the car.

In any event, when most people talk about a subway to STC, they incidentally aren't talking about Sheppard. They usually talk about extending Bloor-Danforth to STC. That point is now rendered moot by the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT which will provide a transferless ride from STC to Yonge.

 

[kEiThZ]

I would be in favour of this in theory, but then what's stopping us from saying "oh well if we're going to Warden, might as well build it to Agincourt so we can connect with the GO station". Every potential terminus point has its benefits. The question is whether those benefits are worth the added cost.

Personally for me it's either only to Vic Park or all the way to Agincourt. That way a proper intermodal terminal can be built there, for connection with the Stouffville line, and whatever other types of service they decide to route through there.

Honestly, if the thing reached Agincourt, I think it would basically terminate there for the rest of our lives. Ridership east and southeast (STC) could easily be handled by bus for the foreseeable future. And by Agincourt, you have put most of northern and central Scarborough's population with a 10 min bus ride of a subway station. Malvern would be within 20-30 mins of Agincourt station...though it's probably better served by an Eglinton-Scarborough LRT extension right to Malvern Town Centre.

 

[liamdevlin02]

Honestly, if the thing reached Agincourt, I think it would basically terminate there for the rest of our lives.

Right on the money. Agincourt (and the GO station there) should be the eastern termination point. I never fully understood the desire to extend the Sheppard line south of the 401. Is having a loop of SLRT, BD Subway, Yonge Subway and Sheppard Subway really that desirable?

 

[andrewpmk]

Right on the money. Agincourt (and the GO station there) should be the eastern termination point. I never fully understood the desire to extend the Sheppard line south of the 401. Is having a loop of SLRT, BD Subway, Yonge Subway and Sheppard Subway really that desirable?

The trouble is, Scarborough Centre is a major bus hub with many TTC routes and GO buses to Durham Region. I think that connecting both Sheppard and Eglinton to that point is necessary in order to provide 1 transfer rides from North York Centre to most areas of northeastern Scarborough and Durham Region (would GO bus service between STC and York Mills/Yorkdale be discontinued when the Sheppard line opens?)

 

[Rainforest]

The trouble is, Scarborough Centre is a major bus hub with many TTC routes and GO buses to Durham Region. I think that connecting both Sheppard and Eglinton to that point is necessary in order to provide 1 transfer rides from North York Centre to most areas of northeastern Scarborough and Durham Region

If the Sheppard subway ends at Agincourt (or even Warden or Vic Park), GO buses from Durham Region can stop at STC and then continue to the subway terminus. Likewise, the TTC bus network could be adjusted towards the subway. In particular, routes 38 and 190 could be combined, running express from the subway terminus to STC, and then local from STC to UTSC and Port Union.

(would GO bus service between STC and York Mills/Yorkdale be discontinued when the Sheppard line opens?)

I'd say, "if" it opens, not "when" . And if it does, then GO buses probably should no longer go to York Mills, to avoid duplication.

 

[Rainforest]

I would be in favour of this in theory, but then what's stopping us from saying "oh well if we're going to Warden, might as well build it to Agincourt so we can connect with the GO station". Every potential terminus point has its benefits. The question is whether those benefits are worth the added cost.

That's true.

Personally for me it's either only to Vic Park or all the way to Agincourt. That way a proper intermodal terminal can be built there, for connection with the Stouffville line, and whatever other types of service they decide to route through there.

The problem with Vic Park extension might be a relatively large proportion of fixed costs (launch site and bus terminal).

Agincourt would be better than Warden or Vic Park, but the funding to get there would be harder to obtain.

 

[LAz]

I am 100% sold on extending this thing to warden asap. Suppose it's a billion dollars... that's fair.


What's the best way to lobby the administration to just get moving on this? If people can protest wall-street, thеy can protest lack of subway building too.

 

[drum118]

I am 100% sold on extending this thing to warden asap. Suppose it's a billion dollars... that's fair.


What's the best way to lobby the administration to just get moving on this? If people can protest wall-street, thеy can protest lack of subway building too.

First of all, you need to find the Gravy to fund this line. Without that funding, the administration cannot get to the on deck position, let alone first base.

Since no one in the P3 arena has said they will build this line, no money from the province for anything other than an LRT and no money from the Feds, the line is dead as a subway at this time.

Until the Eglinton line is built, you have no idea how much money if any, will be left over to start work on this line. Unless that money is greater than $600 million, you will only get to the first station before Victoria.

Getting to Victoria has legs, since the underground has to be built mid block for LRT in the first place, but not to Warden.