TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[dunkalunk]

I always thought that it would have made more sense to make the subway extension to Vaughan a part of the Sheppard Subway given that both the Sheppard and Vaughan extension were likely to have similar passenger volumes. I imagine something like this would be feasible. Much of a Sheppard west connection line could be cheaply trenched beside the existing existing roadway.

Those transferring to or from Downtown would change trains at the perpendicular platforms at Allen-Sheppard Station while those transferring in an East-West Direction would transfer cross-platform at Downsview Park. Trains on the YUS would be short turned at Downsview. Thoughts?

How far along is the progress on the tunnel from Downsview to Sheppard West? Would it be too late to change the tunnel geometry to allow for a same-direction cross-platform transfer at the Sheppard West (GO) station?

 

[BurlOak]

I always thought that it would have made more sense to make the subway extension to Vaughan a part of the Sheppard Subway given that both the Sheppard and Vaughan extension were likely to have similar passenger volumes. I imagine something like this would be feasible. Much of a Sheppard west connection line could be cheaply trenched beside the existing existing roadway.

Those transferring to or from Downtown would change trains at the perpendicular platforms at Allen-Sheppard Station while those transferring in an East-West Direction would transfer cross-platform at Downsview Park. Trains on the YUS would be short turned at Downsview. Thoughts?

How deep is the Allen-Sheppard (formerly and currently Donwsview, Sheppard West in the future) station. can the Sheppard line (station) fit over top?

Based on what has been promised to Vaughan, you may need an interline since they do want a direct connection to downtown. Vaughan Southbound either goes to Union or Sheppard line. University Northbound all go to Vaughan. This is probably more service than what was promised to Vaughan.

 

[Palma]

H
Based on what has been promised to Vaughan, you may need an interline since they do want a direct connection to downtown. n.

So because they want a direct connection means they need to get it? I can't believe a subway for a city that has 250,000 people. How can they even be called a city? Are they really a city or do they just call themselves that? Markham has more people and they are not a city.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

How deep is the Allen-Sheppard (formerly and currently Donwsview, Sheppard West in the future) station. can the Sheppard line (station) fit over top?

Based on what has been promised to Vaughan, you may need an interline since they do want a direct connection to downtown. Vaughan Southbound either goes to Union or Sheppard line. University Northbound all go to Vaughan. This is probably more service than what was promised to Vaughan.

I know some of the trains will be short turned at Downsview (soon to be Sheppard W) station, something like 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 will actually go North to Vaughan upon opening. This would give a service of about 1 train every 5 mins or so. If you add the Sheppard line to the Vaughan extension than maybe you could add another short turn say at Steeles W or retain the existing one at St. Clair W. Thus maintaining the level of service at Vaughan.

 

[Palma]

I think if you want people to take Sheppard downtown instead of transferring at Yonge, it needs to be faster than transferring. By removing some stations on the Spadina line, such as Wilson, Lawrence West, Glencarin, Dupont, and Spadina North it could allow the line to reach highway speeds and reach Union at the same time as the Yonge line does.

You have got to be insane. And what about the people getting on at those stops now that you want to take away? How are they to get downtown to Union? Just so Sheppard gets built and gets those people up at Sheppard downtown. Ridiculous. I say eliminate the Spadina extension.

 

[EnviroTO]

I doubt that very much. It's 10 minutes or more out of the way. If people think LRT is inferior because it will take 10 minutes longer than a subway trip, they'll just get off at Yonge, hair-brained interlining operation or not.

I would have to agree. The idea that LRT can be overkill on a route where subway makes sense is completely illogical. Not enough people will ride an LRT to justify the small investment due to speed but somehow there are a ton of people wanting to go from Sheppard and Kennedy to downtown via Wilson station despite needing to travel 14km across town before making progress towards downtown, all to avoid an 18 minute bus to Kennedy. Obviously any place a subway makes sense cannot be overkill for LRT... it can only be underkill.

 

[EnviroTO]

You have got to be insane. And what about the people getting on at those stops now that you want to take away? How are they to get downtown to Union? Just so Sheppard gets built and gets those people up at Sheppard downtown. Ridiculous. I say eliminate the Spadina extension.

If the Yonge line no longer terminated at Finch and instead turned onto the Sheppard Line then the Sheppard Line would be very popular, but obviously at that point it makes sense to remove York Mills, Lawrence, Davisville, Summerhill, and Rosedale stations... hardly anyone from the Sheppard Line goes there so what is the value of those stations.

 

[Palma]

If the Yonge line no longer terminated at Finch and instead turned onto the Sheppard Line then the Sheppard Line would be very popular, but obviously at that point it makes sense to remove York Mills, Lawrence, Davisville, Summerhill, and Rosedale stations... hardly anyone from the Sheppard Line goes there so what is the value of those stations.

Once again, why is it all about what people from the Sheppard line go to. What about people living around York Mills, Lawrence, Davisville, Summerhill and Rosedale stations? As if those stations exist just so perhaps someone from the Sheppard line might get off there

 

[car4041]

Once again, why is it all about what people from the Sheppard line go to. What about people living around York Mills, Lawrence, Davisville, Summerhill and Rosedale stations? As if those stations exist just so perhaps someone from the Sheppard line might get off there

This one was sarcasm -- although considering some of the other apparently serious proposals in this thread, I can't really blame you for missing it...

 

[Palma]

This one was sarcasm -- although considering some of the other apparently serious proposals in this thread, I can't really blame you for missing it...

I missed it. When I see people taking off stops just so people from one area can get to another area faster it upsets me. They should take GO. And I have seen just posts many times

 

[dunkalunk]

Considering alternate financing schemes for the western extension of Sheppard, what would people think of selling the Davisville Yards to developers? Once the Sheppard line is extended west, I can't imagine that expanding the Wilson yard would be that expensive, particularly if the track connecting Allen-Sheppard (not to be confused with the astronaut) to the University Line were used for revenue service.

 

[Justin10000]

This one was sarcasm -- although considering some of the other apparently serious proposals in this thread, I can't really blame you for missing it...

I have heard crazier proposals on here.

 

[BurlOak]

I always thought that it would have made more sense to make the subway extension to Vaughan a part of the Sheppard Subway given that both the Sheppard and Vaughan extension were likely to have similar passenger volumes. I imagine something like this would be feasible. Much of a Sheppard west connection line could be cheaply trenched beside the existing existing roadway.

Those transferring to or from Downtown would change trains at the perpendicular platforms at Allen-Sheppard Station while those transferring in an East-West Direction would transfer cross-platform at Downsview Park. Trains on the YUS would be short turned at Downsview. Thoughts?

How far along is the progress on the tunnel from Downsview to Sheppard West? Would it be too late to change the tunnel geometry to allow for a same-direction cross-platform transfer at the Sheppard West (GO) station?

How much would this extension cost?

Subway cost are typically about $350M /km (usually $300M/km is given for a subway that is favourable to members of UT, i.e. DRL, and about $450M/km if it is a line favoured by Ford). It is 4km from Yonge to Dufferin. Thus $1.4B. Donsview park is another 1.5km = say $500M. Total of $2B.

How can this cost be reduced? How much lower would it be if we closed Sheppard for a period of 2 or 3 years? The construction methods itself would change - i.e. shallower tunnels and stations. That is the potential money on the table if we look at alternate ways in constrction. Shorter construction time is also a possibility with these alternative construction methods.

Instead of a philosophy of providing the best possible accomodation to traffic during construction, we look at providing the minimum requried service during construction. Tell local businesses and residents that the options are servere traffic disruptions and a subway, or no subway at all - an expensive subway is not an option.

 

[Paleo]

How can this cost be reduced? How much lower would it be if we closed Sheppard for a period of 2 or 3 years? The construction methods itself would change - i.e. shallower tunnels and stations. That is the potential money on the table if we look at alternate ways in constrction. Shorter construction time is also a possibility with these alternative construction methods.

Instead of a philosophy of providing the best possible accomodation to traffic during construction, we look at providing the minimum requried service during construction. Tell local businesses and residents that the options are servere traffic disruptions and a subway, or no subway at all - an expensive subway is not an option.

The only underground "alternative" is cut and cover construction. If the professional whiners complain about the disruption caused by the St. Clair Disaster, I'd love to see their reaction to a huge trench running down Sheppard for the next 5 years. Cognitive dissonance would be the flavour of the day.

 

[Rainforest]

... but somehow there are a ton of people wanting to go from Sheppard and Kennedy to downtown via Wilson station despite needing to travel 14km across town before making progress towards downtown, all to avoid an 18 minute bus to Kennedy.

It won't be a ton of people; but the detour via Wilson looks weird at the first glance only; actually it will make sense for many riders.

If the trip from Yonge/Sheppard to Union via Wilson Stn will take 10 minutes longer than the direct trip down Yonge, but the former is a one-seat ride and the latter requires a transfer (~ 5 min), then the effective difference is about 5 min. Riders who are not in a great hurry will probably be OK with it.

Moreover, quite a few riders go to destinations near the University Ave stations. For St Andrew, the difference is 2-3 min only, and for Osgoode it is a tie. For St Patric and College, the trip via Wilson will actually be faster.