TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[car4041]

At peak the YUS is a frequency of about 2.5 minutes, so the Sheppard frequency would actually be improved from what it is, with only half the trains. Not seeing a huge issue here.

I didn't say there was an issue in the peak. And maybe there's no issue in the off-peak either -- I just think that it's an aspect of the proposal that should be kept in mind.

 

[Solid Snake]

fyi

Here's the latest scoop:

- Sheppard Panel will recommend LRT

- The panel is not considering recommending a subway extension to Victoria Park or Pharmacy because Sheppard will continue to be an operational liability

- However, if as part of the same project, Sheppard is interlined to become a part of the University/Spadina line, the numbers begin to make sense

If Ford will agree to parking taxes or road tolls, Stintz's motion will be to ask the Province to extend the subway line one stop East to Victoria Park and one stop West to Bathurst with the funds available. Meanwhile, the city will commit to implementing the revenue generators to extend the subway west the rest of the way to interline with the University/Spadina line. The cheapest option is cut & cover the entire remaining distance south through Earl Bales Park and then under a local road where it would meet the above ground track near the Downsview portal. These details however are out of the scope of this panel and the final alignment would be decided in the EA.

If Doug Ford doesn't put his foot in his brothers mouth, this is the motion that will be on the Council floor on March 21st. There are at least 26 councillors who will support it if Ford & Co. follow through.

This is Rob Ford's last chance to save face and tell people that he "won" and "we're building subways". However, I very much doubt that any shovels will be in the ground before the next election. The EA will take at least a couple of years and it'll be 2020 before any ribbons are cut. Ford will have to wear the parking taxes or road tolls without any subways built to show for it. This is why I think we're going to get another set of failed negotiations and we're building the Sheppard LRT instead.

Either Ford goes with this compromise

or

he waits for the 2014 election and makes sure he gets the majority on council and rewrites the Transit agenda since SELRT would most likely not start before 2015 and Eglinton Crosstown will not have reach Don Mills by then

 

[EnviroTO]

If Ford will agree to parking taxes or road tolls, Stintz's motion will be to ask the Province to extend the subway line one stop East to Victoria Park and one stop West to Bathurst with the funds available. Meanwhile, the city will commit to implementing the revenue generators to extend the subway west the rest of the way to interline with the University/Spadina line. The cheapest option is cut & cover the entire remaining distance south through Earl Bales Park and then under a local road where it would meet the above ground track near the Downsview portal. These details however are out of the scope of this panel and the final alignment would be decided in the EA.

So the panel will recommend not doing subway, but if Ford agrees to parking taxes or road tolls alienating his Toronto Sun fans, then Stintz will recommend building subway a few stations despite the panel stating "it only begins to make sense". Would building Sheppard as an interlined University line mean not building the Sheppard East LRT? As mentioned it would mean extending the platforms on the Sheppard line to their full length. The space for those platforms is there, but the finishes aren't so that will obviously be a larger expense. I wonder if they stored finishing tiles away somewhere, if they would extend the patterns or art, or if the extended platforms would end up looking different than the original parts. It is easy to see why interlining with University would make sense from a ridership perspective... everyone on the Sheppard line gets on the Yonge southbound and Finch East bus riders avoid going to Don Mills to get on the Yonge subway at the start of the line. With interlining getting on at Don Mills (or Victoria) would get you a seat downtown.

 

[Solid Snake]

So the panel will recommend not doing subway, but if Ford agrees to parking taxes or road tolls alienating his Toronto Sun fans, then Stintz will recommend building subway a few stations despite the panel stating "it only begins to make sense".

By making the Sheppard line a branch of the Spadina line, the numbers makes more senses and you're just adding the Sheppard ridership to Spadina. Sheppard's ridership will be higher than the extension to Vaughan anyways

Would building Sheppard as an interlined University line mean not building the Sheppard East LRT?

I surely hope so. Anything east of Agincourt is overkill for LRT and we're talking a BILLION dollar for Sheppard. Finch West makes way more sense to spend that kind of money. East of Agincourt could easily have HOV lane for buses

 

[Paleo]

I surely hope so. Anything east of Agincourt is overkill for LRT and we're talking a BILLION dollar for Sheppard. Finch West makes way more sense to spend that kind of money. East of Agincourt could easily have HOV lane for buses

Do you not see the irony when you call for a Sheppard subway when subway is overkill for the entirety of the corridor? We're talking 4.7 BILLION more for Sheppard.

 

[Solid Snake]

Do you not see the irony when you call for a Sheppard subway when subway is overkill for the entirety of the corridor? We're talking 4.7 BILLION more for Sheppard.

If Sheppard becomes a branch of the YUS line, then I won't be an overkill anymore

 

[jje1000]

fyi



Either Ford goes with this compromise

or

he waits for the 2014 election and makes sure he gets the majority on council and rewrites the Transit agenda since SELRT would most likely not start before 2015 and Eglinton Crosstown will not have reach Don Mills by then

Good luck with the second option.

 

[Solid Snake]

Good luck with the second option.

Then read this
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...en-stintz-what-direction-next/article2365275/

Karen Stinz:

The mayor, she predicts, “will run again and will be successful, if he focuses back on his fiscal mandate. There’s still an opportunity to carve that path. He’s got more than two years.”

 

[Paleo]

If Sheppard becomes a branch of the YUS line, then I won't be an overkill anymore

I doubt that very much. It's 10 minutes or more out of the way. If people think LRT is inferior because it will take 10 minutes longer than a subway trip, they'll just get off at Yonge, hair-brained interlining operation or not.

 

[Solid Snake]

I doubt that very much. It's 10 minutes or more out of the way. If people think LRT is inferior because it will take 10 minutes longer than a subway trip, they'll just get off at Yonge, hair-brained interlining operation or not.

The Sheppard Branch is an excellent idea that's been done in so many subway networks around the world. Many people living in Scarborough do work west of Bay street in the financial district or beyond. Until now they had to go on the Yonge line to get there faster. With the Sheppard line being a branch to the Spadina line they have the option of just staying on the train and go south and keep their seats since the Yonge line is almost full at Sheppard Yonge anyways.

 

[JWBF]

With all the reading in this thread I have a question...

Is Sheppard transit supposed to support the various communities along the eastern portion or just funnel riders from one point to another?

---

Agreed, except I thought we were talking about building RT connections to places that don't already have them. STC is already served by RT. The line to VMC is being built right now. I tend to reflexively avoid news about Peel, but IIRC there is a plan to build an RT corridor on Hurontario that would serve MCC.

Sorry, I could not think of any new destinations at that moment; Richmond Hill Centre for one would be logical as a transit hub. A few non transit hubs, for example, would be Seneca College (Newnham & Jane Campus), University of Toronto (Scarborough Campus), Centennial College (Progress Campus), Ontario Science Centre, Black Creek Pioneer Village, and The Nutty Chocolateer (not really important for most but a favorite destination for me and the wife, yum!)

 

[M II A II R II K]

They could also split off the Markham bus routes from Finch to a interlined Sheppard line.

 

[Solid Snake]

They could also split off the Markham bus routes from Finch to a interlined Sheppard line.

If Sheppard gets extended east, there will be a lot a reroutes or new branches to bus lines to the subway line to reduce the travel time of commuters. I wouldn't be surprised if that would be the case for YRT and GO buses instead of going to Yonge street and Finch Station as of now as of now

 

[car4041]

The Sheppard Branch is an excellent idea that's been done in so many subway networks around the world.

Just because many other subway systems have branches doesn't mean it's the right solution for Sheppard -- especially when the whole plan seems to be premised on giving people a one-seat ride from Don Mills to downtown, a flow that would be much better served by GO anyway.

 

[Solid Snake]

Just because many other subway systems have branches doesn't mean it's the right solution for Sheppard -- especially when the whole plan seems to be premised on giving people a one-seat ride from Don Mills to downtown, a flow that would be much better served by GO anyway.

Torontonians don't use GO to get Downtown. What's your alternative then?
You simply disagree without saying why and how you would fix it. Sheppard LRT won't accomplish that goal since they'll transfer to Sheppard-Yonge which won't relieve the line. You can't build LRT on Sheppard West because the Avenue is too narrow.

Sheppard as a branch makes more sense and the increase ridership would make it less of a financial liability. It's better to improve it to increase the ridership than leave the line the way it is.