TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[GenerationW]

All the Sheppard stubway extension plans will essentially do is divert time and money away from building the DRL -- which should be the bigger priority here.

In the current transit battle, the DRL is no priority at all (for either side).

 

[Palma]

And likely more growth on Sheppard than Eglinton since 2006. So that means Christopher Hume was right -- the Eglinton LRT should be a surface route in its entirety! If it's good enough for Sheppard...

Which part of Jane?

Whichever was proposed with the original Transit City under Miller. I believe there was a Jane LRT proposed. I know there was an issue because once again parts of Jane is too narrow for surface LRT and of course as you go further north it gets wider

 

[kEiThZ]

Honestly, at this point, though I support the subway, I'm willing to concede, a conversion of the subway to LRT. I (and I suspect most riders) hate the transfer enough to see it go. And if the numbers are actual truth, then Sheppard can supposedly survive only on LRT all the way.

It won't make for real rapid transit. The time saved will be nice for some. But it won't divert any significant amount of riders from other corridors. And I really can't see if it will really get lots of people out of their cars. But whatever, something will get built. And someone will be satisfied. Mediocrity is soooo Toronto. Build for the sake of building.

ps. I would actually support new taxes and levies to build a proper subway on Sheppard. And thereafter to use those funds to build the DRL, to extend Yonge, to extend Eglinton to the airport and build a branch to Kingston, and for a myriad other transit projects. Sadly, the right believes in promising fast transit with no fiscal plan at all. The left believes that speed is irrelevant and all that matters is the absolute number of kms of rapid transit built. Neither reflects the viewpoint of the average citizen. Sad.

 

[Tulse]

In the current transit battle, the DRL is no priority at all (for either side).

At least we've heard it mentioned a couple of times recently.

And to be fair, the "current" battle goes back to Miller and before, as what is being debated is a vision that is many years old, and is already very far along in planning and funding terms. While a DRL is desperately needed, that's not what's on the table at present, and making it a part of this round would only slow things up even more. Once this fight is over, we can move on to the DRL.

 

[EnviroTO]

And likely more growth on Sheppard than Eglinton since 2006. So that means Christopher Hume was right -- the Eglinton LRT should be a surface route in its entirety! If it's good enough for Sheppard...

Transit City was to be LRT on the surface in its entirety... except in places where the street wasn't wide enough to fit it. To put the LRT on the surface on central Eglinton would use two lanes for the tracks, and one lane for platforms... out of 4 lanes originally there would be only one left for traffic. Central Eglinton is thinner than both St.Clair and Spadina. The decision to go underground wasn't about Eglinton being better or worse than Sheppard, but due to practicality. Parts of the Jane LRT and Don Mills LRT would go underground for the same reason.

 

[EnviroTO]

Sadly, the right believes in promising fast transit with no fiscal plan at all. The left believes that speed is irrelevant and all that matters is the absolute number of kms of rapid transit built.

I think everyone would support Transit City wholly implemented as subway in addition to the DRL if there was the money to do it. There won't be enough money for even a fraction of that. Transit City is an efficiency and capacity first approach that deals with the reality that ridership is growing and when ridership increases on a bus route the operating costs grow to absorb all the new revenues leaving the city with a bigger bill to pay, and as congestion grows buses in mixed traffic cost more to transport less. LRT changes the equations so as ridership grows on an LRT route the city can close the farebox recovery gap. The outdoor LRT platforms will have no staff and low maintenance, a single LRT driver will be able to handle 4 or more buses of passengers, and the vehicles deliver greater energy efficiency. Hopefully it will go far enough that the discussion of service cuts that typically come up every 4 or 5 years can become a thing of the past. Leaving the busiest bus routes as bus routes means that congestion, rising fuel costs, and ridership growth strangle the city's finances.

 

[Electrify]

LRT. Thats the answer. Whats the issue with having to transfer? You get on at Bloor and head west or east you transfer at St. George or Yonge. Or go siouth on Spadina and transfer at St. george and again at Yonge. Its happens all the time. You get on the Lawrence West bus and want to go east to Yonge, guess what? At Lawrence West station you need to get off and transfer bus. And I bet once you get to Yonge and Lawrence and you want to continue further east along Lawrence you probably have to transfer bus again. It happens all the time with buses yet someone Sheppard is so special that its a big hassle to get off the LRT and get on the subway. How lazy are people because thats what this is all about

Look at it this way: Imagine that from Front to Eglinton you could take the subway, between Eglinton and Sheppard you transferred on to an LRT line, then at Sheppard you transferred back on to a subway to Finch, and then at Finch on to the Viva to head north. For those travelling along Sheppard, this will be comparable to that scenario.

Obviously a line must end and cannot go on forever, but there needs to be some sense behind it. Ending the subway at Yonge or Don Mills does not make sense.

And I agree that just using LRT would be best. Convert the tunnel to use LRVs, or convert the rolling stock on the line to be able to run on the street.

 

[drum118]

Extending it east to Jane and west to the RT would make for the greatest subway ever!

Why stop at Jane and not at Weston Rd?

Better still, take it to Weston Rd and then to the airport.

You will need provision to take the line to the Pickering Airport once it get built.

 

[Neil]

Obviously a line must end and cannot go on forever, but there needs to be some sense behind it. Ending the subway at Yonge or Don Mills does not make sense.

But imagine a Sheppard LRT that turns S on Don Mills and meets a DRL at Lawrence. That would be a pretty good connection for Scarborough residents and one that would not happen if the Subway is extended to Vic Park.

 

[Dan416]

Honestly, at this point, though I support the subway, I'm willing to concede, a conversion of the subway to LRT. I (and I suspect most riders) hate the transfer enough to see it go. And if the numbers are actual truth, then Sheppard can supposedly survive only on LRT all the way.

With the $600 million estimated to convert Sheppard to LRT (which it arguably should have been in the first place) would be put to better use extending the Sheppard subway. Spending $600 million to not even build a kilometer of transit isn't money well-spent.

 

[Hipster Duck]

But imagine a Sheppard LRT that turns S on Don Mills and meets a DRL at Lawrence. That would be a pretty good connection for Scarborough residents and one that would not happen if the Subway is extended to Vic Park.

That's the best idea I've heard on this forum in a while. I like it! Actually, I would go one step further - I'd extend a southerly leg of the Sheppard East-Don Mills LRT to Eglinton and have it wye with the Eglinton LRT. Don Mills/Eglinton would be another major transfer station that incorporates the northeastern terminus of the DRL (subway), the Eglinton crosstown LRT and the southern terminus of the Sheppard East-Don Mills LRT. You could even interline certain Sheppard-Don Mills LRT trains into the Eglinton crosstown tunnel.

 

[Neil]

Thank you. This corner of the city has occupied too much of my thoughts lately and I've modified my stance a couple times. I've convinced now that the Shepperd LRT should be completely at grade, and from Consumers to Don Mills it should be on the south side of the road. At Don Mills I would dead-end Parkway Forest Drive and put the LRT stop right where the subway entrance already exists:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.775347,-79.344635&spn=0.002979,0.004501&t=h&z=18
From the south side of Sheppard the LRT would turn onto the median of Don Mills. By building completely at grade, the LRT could probably be constructed all the way to Eglinton with the money that is on the table now!

 

[Palma]

Look at it this way: Imagine that from Front to Eglinton you could take the subway, between Eglinton and Sheppard you transferred on to an LRT line, then at Sheppard you transferred back on to a subway to Finch, and then at Finch on to the Viva to head north. For those travelling along Sheppard, this will be comparable to that scenario.

Obviously a line must end and cannot go on forever, but there needs to be some sense behind it. Ending the subway at Yonge or Don Mills does not make sense.

And I agree that just using LRT would be best. Convert the tunnel to use LRVs, or convert the rolling stock on the line to be able to run on the street.

I don't follow this scenario. You say between Front and Eglinton you take subway (Must be Yonge line),then you say between Eglinton and Sheppard you transferred on to an LRT line (not sure what LRT this would be since I am not aware of any proposed LRT line going west east except for Sheppard and Finch) then you say at Sheppard you transferred back on to a subway to Finch and get on Viva bus (why not continue along the Yonge line and get off at Finch and then take Viva (To me only transfer is from Finch subway stop to Viva). Look i transferred 3x to get to work in the morning and repeated the same thing in the evening for 5 years - not a big issue except if people are really lazy. Ya I know when you look at Spadina extension- those in Vaughan will get on and be able to get down to union with no transfers - not fair I know especially since there should never have been an extension out to there and each time I think about it I get angry and politician should have concentrated on Toronto, not Vaughan but we know its all political for the Liberals. That extension should have been an LRT so they would have needed to transfer at Sheppard to get on the subway.

I do not know why one talks about the fact of why they are burying the extension up there when there is nothing around. This is what councillors from Scarborough should be asking and making a big deal about so that the Liberals would need to explain their actions of spending all this money for no other reason than political and then ask how come this cannot be done in Toronto and why Eglinton did not get a full fledge subway yet Vaughan does. This is what Ford should be pushing - not pitting Scarborough against Toronto

 

[kEiThZ]

With the $600 million estimated to convert Sheppard to LRT (which it arguably should have been in the first place) would be put to better use extending the Sheppard subway. Spending $600 million to not even build a kilometer of transit isn't money well-spent.

But isn't this just the inverse of the more kilometres for $$$s that LRT fans put out?

I hate to say that I agree with nfitz, but he's not off-base. If it's going to cost a billion to get to Vic Park and that's not going to happen, then what's the point of simply defending the status quo and imposing an unnecessary transfer on millions of riders. Not to mention lacking commonality in rolling stock along the corridor, and incurring higher costs when going west along Sheppard when using HRT.

There will be no northern crosstown. A York U student staying in Scarborough will see commute drop by 10-15 mins at best. If Sheppard does get extended westward (which probably won't happen if Finch West is built till Yonge), then he might get a ride that saves him 20-30 mins compared to today. Yet, if Sheppard was built as originally envisioned, that student would see their commute cut in half. Sure this is admitting defeat. But I submit that's what Toronto is about these days. Rather than build a transit system that gets people to where they want to go in a reasonable amount of time, our goal is now to give them a more comfortable ride and get them there in a time that will let them enjoy one more cup of coffee at breakfast time. And years from now, when billions have been spent, we'll still have the same gridlock, because all those folks who don't work downtown or along one of the LRT avenues will still be driving because transit will still take them twice as long.

 

[Electrify]

I don't follow this scenario. You say between Front and Eglinton you take subway (Must be Yonge line),then you say between Eglinton and Sheppard you transferred on to an LRT line (not sure what LRT this would be since I am not aware of any proposed LRT line going west east except for Sheppard and Finch) then you say at Sheppard you transferred back on to a subway to Finch and get on Viva bus (why not continue along the Yonge line and get off at Finch and then take Viva (To me only transfer is from Finch subway stop to Viva). Look i transferred 3x to get to work in the morning and repeated the same thing in the evening for 5 years - not a big issue except if people are really lazy. Ya I know when you look at Spadina extension- those in Vaughan will get on and be able to get down to union with no transfers - not fair I know especially since there should never have been an extension out to there and each time I think about it I get angry and politician should have concentrated on Toronto, not Vaughan but we know its all political for the Liberals. That extension should have been an LRT so they would have needed to transfer at Sheppard to get on the subway.

I do not know why one talks about the fact of why they are burying the extension up there when there is nothing around. This is what councillors from Scarborough should be asking and making a big deal about so that the Liberals would need to explain their actions of spending all this money for no other reason than political and then ask how come this cannot be done in Toronto and why Eglinton did not get a full fledge subway yet Vaughan does. This is what Ford should be pushing - not pitting Scarborough against Toronto

The scenario I'm drawing is if the subway ended at Eglinton, but there was another subway between Sheppard and Finch...