TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[nfitz]

That should be CRRC and CAF. What I get for trying to do 3 things at the same time

CAF I can see if they have an Ontario assembly facility.

I really don't see us ordering trains from the Chinese government. Especially as the political situation worsens, and will likely worsen even more if the Conservatives get elected, and with the inevetible invasion of Taiwan.

 

[APTA-2048]

CAF I can see if they have an Ontario assembly facility.

I really don't see us ordering trains from the Chinese government. Especially as the political situation worsens, and will likely worsen even more if the Conservatives get elected, and with the inevetible invasion of Taiwan.

CRRC doesn’t really have a stellar reputation given all the issues they’ve had with the orders they do have in North America. The worst is probably the Philadelphia bilevel commuter car order.

 

[Bojaxs]

In the sense that these will be open-gangway trains of standard TTC length, and made in Thunder Bay, yes.

There are some tweaks, mechanically and appearance wise.

My mistake. I misunderstood this announcement. I was under the impression that Alstom already got the contract, and that Thunder Bay was going to manufacture these trains, but it appears that's not the case.

I thought these schematics were confirmed for what the trains would look like on Line 2.

 

[81-717]

I thought these schematics were confirmed for what the trains would look like on Line 2.

I sure hope they'll look like that, and not like the proposed "update" akin to the 81-765.

 

[TossYourJacket]

My mistake. I misunderstood this announcement. I was under the impression that Alstom already got the contract, and that Thunder Bay was going to manufacture these trains, but it appears that's not the case.

I thought these schematics were confirmed for what the trains would look like on Line 2.
View attachment 615895View attachment 615896

That's the previous design for the new trains, it's changed slightly since then, mostly at the front end. This image below, from the UT story on the funding for the new trains is the updated look (and was announced a few months ago, i think when the provincial funding was confirmed). Similar overall to the design you posted, but a bit more polished (and distinct from the TRs at the front). Also, lights near the doors to show when they're closing! (like in Montreal, or on the streetcars)

In terms of procurement, it's most likely Alstom will build them in Thunder Bay due to the similarities to the existing trains, but the TTC will need to follow a procurement process to avoid potential legal issues. Sole Sourcing a $2.3 Billion contract is a nightmare for a government agency so most likely the strategy here is to write the specifications for the trains so it's tailored to be Alstom building them in TB, but if another manufacturer can meet all the contract requirements for less, they'd get the contract. My guess is there'll be a requirement to build them in Ontario, of which that requirement alone will take out most of the major competition (and is also very on-brand for the Ford government in terms of their preference for things to be made in Ontario).

 

[Bojaxs]

Is there any work that has to be done on Line 2 before they can get these new trains to operate on the line?
Once all the T1's have been completely phased out, will we see the TTC simply have both the original TR's and these new trains operating interchangeably on lines 1,2 & 4?

 

[DSC]

Is there any work that has to be done on Line 2 before they can get these new trains to operate on the line?
Once all the T1's have been completely phased out, will we see the TTC simply have both the original TR's and these new trains operating interchangeably on lines 1,2 & 4?

They need to upgrade the signal system.

 

[chrisw]

So what's the other $442 million for - that's hardly a small sum to brush aside?

Well, it's part of the Baseline stream so maybe it doesn't need to be allocated to specific items in the capital budget right now.

The baseline stream is $500m per year or $5B over 10 years.

There's also $20B over 10 years to fund Metro-Region Agreements.

 

[drum118]

They need to upgrade the signal system.

As I noted above, it has to be done a lot faster than Line 1and before the new trains enter service.

 

[81-717]

Is there any work that has to be done on Line 2 before they can get these new trains to operate on the line?

They need to upgrade the signal system.

As I noted above, it has to be done a lot faster than Line 1and before the new trains enter service.

An upgraded signal system is not required for the new trains to run, it's the new trains that are required for the changeover to the new signal system. Since the changeover from old to new fleet would happen gradually over the course of a few years rather than overnight, during that time both old and new fleets would need to share the right-of-way on the same signal system, thus the new trains must be able to be driven manually. The same is true of the TRs on line 1, which entered service years before ATC went live. So any delay in ATC implementation on line 2 should not affect the delivery schedule of the new fleet.

Once all the T1's have been completely phased out, will we see the TTC simply have both the original TR's and these new trains operating interchangeably on lines 1,2 & 4?

The TRs are supposed to stay on lines 1 & 4 for the remainder of their service life, and line 2 will consist entirely of the new fleet, however some of the new fleet will also go on line 1 (the add-on batch for the YNSE) and possibly eventually line 4 as well. Of course, it's possible the TRs may occasionally go on line 2 as well, as they have in the past, unless the line 2 ATC won't be compatible with them for whatever reason (apparently line 2 ATC is to be different than that of line 1).

 

[JBR]

My mistake. I misunderstood this announcement. I was under the impression that Alstom already got the contract, and that Thunder Bay was going to manufacture these trains, but it appears that's not the case.

I thought these schematics were confirmed for what the trains would look like on Line 2.
View attachment 615895View attachment 615896

Not your mistake at all. Freeland herself said they will be built in ThunderBay which was odd since the tender is still out. Other bidders could technically sue for unfair tender practices (already decided Alstom without going thru the proper channels).

 

[turini2]

Not your mistake at all. Freeland herself said they will be built in ThunderBay which was odd since the tender is still out. Other bidders could technically sue for unfair tender practices (already decided Alstom without going thru the proper channels).

As happened to the Azur trains in Montreal - sole sourced to Bombardier, Alstom sued and won, Alstom and Bombardier then joined forces for a combined bid on the contract.

Realistically it's Alstom's to lose - it depends what the level of Canadian protectionism is in the bidding documents.

 

[DSC]

TTC would have known who won the earlier bid that they cancelled because funding wasn't in place. They would also know which bids were compliant.

Do they even have to rebid it? They could simply ask the winning bidder to revise their numbers if necessary. If it's still the low bid, why waste everyone's time?

Did the TTC actually evaluate the earlier bids and determine they were compliant and which was lowest?

 

[APTA-2048]

Did the TTC actually evaluate the earlier bids and determine they were compliant and which was lowest?

Wasn’t it just an RFI to shortlist manufacturers? No proposals or price.

 

[nfitz]

Wasn’t it just an RFI to shortlist manufacturers? No proposals or price.

Was it? That rings a bell now you say that.

My apologies!

That explains the timeframe. And now it's fairer for everyone, given you don't want too many people knowing the numbers for so long.