TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[T3G]

Sorry, how much do you think it would cost to rename a square and a couple of stations, and how much do you think it would cost to buy new subway cars????

The proposed renaming of Dundas Street was estimated to have a cost in the neighbourhood of $9 million to the city (+ untold costs to private individuals the city would not pay out). This project, while stupid for its own sake, is a significant reduction in scope. How much money do you imagine would be saved that we'd be able to buy new subway cars instead? I don't know the exact pricetag that has been quoted for the new trains, so let's take a look at the most recent rail vehicle order:

The new streetcar contract, which was signed in 2021, was valued at $568 million for 60 cars, so that would come down to around $9.4 million per car, assuming the costs do not also incorporate the costs of parts inventory or maintenance training. So if we assume that the costs would be similar for subway cars, that would mean that in doing away with the plan to rename the whole street you'd have enough money to buy all of 1, maybe 2 subway cars, and much less so under the new plan, especially when you take into account that Dundas' renaming would not even be paid for by the city.

This project is stupid, but the idea that the cost savings could pay for a renewed subway fleet is cheap populist rhetoric.

 

[drum118]

Trying to politically correct theses days has become a joke and costly expense to do so regardless how much good X did that out weight the wrong

What is the plan for renaming Dundas West Station??? Could call it the Junction Station after the area.

Really hate the name the university name.

 

[Richard White]

What is the plan for renaming Dundas West Station??? Could call it the Junction Station after the area.

It could be called Vincent Station.

 

[max]

It could be called Vincent Station.

You and I would get the reference, but what about the rest of the City?

 

[Fred.S]

I really hope they go with Junction Station for Dundas West, or Bloor Junction or something and rename Bloor GO as well so they match (especially since they'll be connected). I always thought that made sense even before this whole Dundas renaming initiative. For Dundas Station downtown, I hope they don't name it after TMU. I'm cool with the university's name, and went there myself, but I think the station needs a name that really reflects the life and vibe of that part of the city.

 

[Richard White]

I really hope they go with Junction Station for Dundas West, or Bloor Junction or something and rename Bloor GO as well so they match (especially since they'll be connected). I always thought that made sense even before this whole Dundas renaming initiative. For Dundas Station downtown, I hope they don't name it after TMU. I'm cool with the university's name, and went there myself, but I think the station needs a name that really reflects the life and vibe of that part of the city.

Eaton Centre station?

 

[Fred.S]

Eaton Centre station?

Haha, I hope not...

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Eaton Centre station?

I think that would be a better used for Queen on the ontario line

 

[81-717]

Eaton Centre station?

Would make most sense for it to just take up whatever new name they decide to give Dundas street.

I think that would be a better used for Queen on the ontario line

True, anything's better than simply calling it Queen (since the OL runs straight along Queen st. for that portion of its route).

 

[T3G]

Did you read the article? Dundas Street is not getting renamed.

 

[Northern Light]

As noted elsehwhere, I'm a tad under the weather UT.

So, I'm putting the links to the TTC's 15 year capital investment plan here:

https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/TTC/DevProto/Documents/Home/Public-Meetings/Board/2023/Dec-20/6_TTCs_2024_2038_Capital_Investment_Plan_A_Review_of_Unfunded_Capital_Needs.pdf?rev=1ef4b6b519b34559b1487aea4808d176&hash=105C587A0F9F0D23A734FA925C37F91A

Yes, that means next week's meeting agenda is up, inclusive of the budget.

I'll just put this one item of interest for now:

But go digging UT, there's some interesting stuff hidden there.

 

[allengeorge]

That is depressing reading. I have no idea how the city can support long-term maintenance of all of its critical infrastructure without significant property tax hikes and a new deal from higher orders of government.

Also, I see that platform edge doors are only really pencilled in after 2033 at a cost of over 4 billion (!). So, if you’re waiting for that…

 

[Northern Light]

That is depressing reading. I have no idea how the city can support long-term maintenance of all of its critical infrastructure without significant property tax hikes and a new deal from higher orders of government.

On this, we agree.

Also, I see that platform edge doors are only really pencilled in after 2033 at a cost of over 4 billion (!). So, if you’re waiting for that…

Excepting Bloor-Yonge,that is correct.

Now, here's what caught me about that.........they've got PEDs in that budget at over 70M per station.

That, will, of course, be, in part, because of cost inflation by pushing the project out so far.

But I still find that number unrealistically high. I can't recall what number the TTC used in last year's budget, but I recall it being lower.

Regardless, I know people in the industry who would be bidders on such a project, and when they looked the numbers for me a year or two ago........they said 'too high be 50%'

I'm not going to accuse any budgeters of anything nefarious...........but I would really like an explanation for the spiralling cost of this ever deferred project item.

***

NYC which is the king of high costs does have even worse numbers (watch for the exchange rate) at 55M USD per station

MTA moves forward with plans to install platform doors in three subway stations

The three stations set to be outfitted with these gates include the 7 train at Times Square, the L train at 3rd Avenue and the E train at Sutphin Boulevard/Archer Avenue in Queens.

abc7ny.com

But by comparison, admittedly with shorter platforms (90M); Paris comes in at $3.7M Euro or 5.4M Canadian. TTC Platforms are roughly 2/3 longer., so that would equate to 9M CAD per station. Ummmm

Platform Edge Doors

In New York, a well-publicized homicide by pushing the victim onto the subway tracks created a conversation about platform edge doors, or PEDs; A Train of Thought even mentions this New York contex…

pedestrianobservations.com

****

Side note here. I completely understand the logic of apply a construction inflation index to future year projects, but it does have a contextual problem in that the TTC doesn't show future year revenue increases in the same light.

 

[rbt]

NYC which is the king of high costs does have even worse numbers (watch for the exchange rate) at 55M USD per station

MTA moves forward with plans to install platform doors in three subway stations

The three stations set to be outfitted with these gates include the 7 train at Times Square, the L train at 3rd Avenue and the E train at Sutphin Boulevard/Archer Avenue in Queens.

abc7ny.com

But by comparison, admittedly with shorter platforms (90M); Paris comes in at $3.7M Euro or 5.4M Canadian. TTC Platforms are roughly 2/3 longer., so that would equate to 9M CAD per station. Ummmm

Platform Edge Doors

In New York, a well-publicized homicide by pushing the victim onto the subway tracks created a conversation about platform edge doors, or PEDs; A Train of Thought even mentions this New York contex…

pedestrianobservations.com

Indeed. Actually installing the doors is cheap.

Last time I saw a breakdown (IIRC Miller was mayor) a lot of the cost was asbestos removal, structurally reinforcing the platform edges, running electrical and network conduit, and fire/smoke handling improvements for the tunnel. Spadina extension stations are likely closer to $5M/station but some of those North York stations like Finch might be $200M.

Installing security cameras ran into many of the same costs. A couple thousand dollars might have a couple million in prep work.

 

[Northern Light]

Indeed. Actually installing the doors is cheap.

Last time I saw a breakdown (IIRC Miller was mayor) a lot of the cost was asbestos removal, structurally reinforcing the platform edges, running electrical and network conduit, and fire/smoke handling improvements for the tunnel.

I concur w/this; though would note, a whole of ventilation improvement has been invested in for the last 10 years;

Also, the project scope should be the same now as 10 years ago, but the estimates per station are over triple (inclusive of future year inflation); on constant scope, that rate of increase seems dubious.