TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[T3G]

On every car??

In the morning rush hours, you have 1444 buses, 131 streetcars, and 109 subway trains out in service. Out of those 109 trains, you have 100 6-car trains, meaning 600 individual cars, and 9 4-car trains, which means an additional 36. So you mean to tell me you want the TTC to hire 2211 employees minimum just to check fares? And if you want each of those employees to also be going after "nutbars, thugs and pervs", you'd better be paying them incredibly well, which will further eat into the TTC's financial sources. How about the police and politicians do their jobs instead? A crazy thought, I know.

Is there no point at which the solution is more of a problem than the actual problem? There are so many better ways that money could be spent. How much more service could 2211 new drivers get you?

 

[allengeorge]

“Shelagh Pizey-Allen, spokesperson for an advocacy group called TTCRiders, said the resumption of ticketing will have a negative impact on people who can least afford to pay.”

Sometimes I wonder if TTCRiders realizes how they sound. Speaking personally, I get incredibly upset when people freeload on the system, and it deeply offends my sense of fairness. I suspect I’m not alone. I’m glad fare evasion ticketing is resuming, and I think body cameras (which the TTC is trialing) and transparent reporting should be the norm as well.

 

[Northern Light]

“Shelagh Pizey-Allen, spokesperson for an advocacy group called TTCRiders, said the resumption of ticketing will have a negative impact on people who can least afford to pay.”

Sometimes I wonder if TTCRiders realizes how they sound. Speaking personally, I get incredibly upset when people freeload on the system, and it deeply offends my sense of fairness. I suspect I’m not alone. I’m glad fare evasion ticketing is resuming, and I think body cameras (which the TTC is trialing) and transparent reporting should be the norm as well.

While I agree, in theory, that fare enforcement ought to exit for the reasons you outline above..........

And that regardless, is not the message TTC Riders should put out.....

I would also say.......

1) The maximum fine of $435 is a problem, when the maximum fine for illegally parking/overstaying the proverbial meter, in most of the City is $40.
So freeloading on transit is treated up to 11x more harshly than freeloading parking. Ummm, not a good look either.

2) What percentage of the freeloaders are homeless or otherwise so desperately poor that they neither can or nor will pay any ticket? In which case, what's the utility of issuing it? I grant there are assorted teens and middle income earners also freeloading, and penalizing them is much more reasonable; though, one might wonder at what cost?

3) We've set up a cumbersome fare structure that's slightly more expensive than it ought to be; easy to breach, both on purpose and accidentally ( 2 hour time limits, too many concession groupings); while I doubt this is a material factor in evasion rates overall, a simplified structure with better value that's easier to enforce would be an overall improvement and likely reduce evasion at the margins.

 

[allengeorge]

@Northern Light I appreciate the nuanced response. Let me step back and attempt to lay out a few thoughts in general:

1. Society operates best when we have some shared set of social ‘mores’ and the overwhelming majority of us operate in response. Operations are cheaper, one needs less enforcement, designs and policies are more ‘open’ etc.
2. Operating outside these mores - without any attempt to rectify it - is corrosive. It sends the signal that these social expectations can be flouted at will. I’m sure I’m simplifying, but it increases the Overton window of these actions and makes it more acceptable to a larger group to ignore, thus snowballing.
3. It is not a transit system’s responsibility to right all social ills. It is not a rolling homeless shelter. Stations are not meant to be respites. Unless fares are free, you don’t have the right to ride for free.

On the last point, I think the questions you’re asking about fare evaders is a valid one. Knowing their composition would allow us to fix the issue using policies that are better placed. Maybe we need more accessible housing. Maybe we need a wider, more accessible fare pass system for low-income earners. Maybe fines need to be lowered. I don’t know. But I would prefer a statement like this as opposed to one simply panning enforcement. It lacks nuance, and comes off as naive.

And for the record, I would be willing to pay taxes to help address the core issues.

 

[T3G]

Personally, I find it critical to distinguish between people who can't pay and people who won't pay.

I have very little beef with those who can't pay. Transit can be a lifeline for many low income communities and if someone has to choose between paying bus fare and buying a meal, I would rather they choose to buy the meal, 100% of the time.

But the people who can pay, and won't, I feel no sympathy for. Especially when they go on their little self righteous screeds about how terrible TTC service is and how they are entitled not to pay. I would love to know just how people like this expect the quality of TTC service to improve.

 

[rbt]

Personally, I find it critical to distinguish between people who can't pay and people who won't pay.

While I agree, that can't be made the TTCs job to differentiate the two groups. Having TTC hire a team of social workers to research and subsidize specific individuals is an extremely inefficient use of funds.

Far better to direct those funds toward organizations which already have those social workers. These organizations can give out single-trip fares or monthly passes as they find necessary.

 

[Northern Light]

While I agree, that shouldn't be the TTCs job. Having TTC hire a team of social workers to subsidize specific individuals is an extremely inefficient use of funds.

The social workers the TTC and hiring are endeavouring to connect people w/those organizations you mention below; to connect people with housing, with mental health services and so on. To me it makes immense sense to be trying to achieve a complete resolution when dealing w/someone.

What you don't want is the TTC simply ousting them on to the street with or without having written a ticket; and then they're either suffering outside w/o the help they need or they just get back on the system on different route or at a different station.

Far better to direct those funds toward organizations which already have those social workers. These organizations can give out single-trip fares or monthly passes as they find necessary.

Absolutely disagree; we already do this; and its a complete and abysmal failure.

Why? Because it pre-supposes that people know that help is available; where to find it, and have the ID and other resources necessary to access it. As a result a very low percentage of qualifying individuals ever access that assistance.

This is why universal programs are better whenever practical. In the case of the TTC that means a lower fare for adults and fare-capping, but also eliminating age-based concessions; for the ultra-poor, the thing they need is money, so they can prioritize housing/food/phone/transit; When Ontario Works is a meagre $733 per month all-in; and ODSP a bit over $1,200 per month; neither providing enough to rent a room in Toronto, let alone pay for food or transit; the problem is clear.

Giving out a token here, a Presto Card there, much like Museum passes, or special internet rates for low-income people; what you do is is serve only a small portion of those in need; you serve only the very specific niches you target; and you do so at extraordinary cost by providing more cumbersome administration and bureaucracy.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

“Shelagh Pizey-Allen, spokesperson for an advocacy group called TTCRiders, said the resumption of ticketing will have a negative impact on people who can least afford to pay.”

Sometimes I wonder if TTCRiders realizes how they sound. Speaking personally, I get incredibly upset when people freeload on the system, and it deeply offends my sense of fairness. I suspect I’m not alone. I’m glad fare evasion ticketing is resuming, and I think body cameras (which the TTC is trialing) and transparent reporting should be the norm as well.

I tend to agree with your take - there should be a mechanism to support individuals with low income so that they can use the TTC without fear of being ticketed because of the inability to pay - *but* it is also important to maintain social order. Transit should not be a "free for all" that encourages behaviour without impunity.

What I would suggest is individuals who are caught evading fare should be fined - and clearing that fine requires demonstration of low income/financial need. It would be a way to "catch" those who are in need and channel them to legitimate support programs (like a low income transit pass) while maintaining deterrence effects. Not enforcing rules is a fool's errand.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

I tend to agree with your take - there should be a mechanism to support individuals with low income so that they can use the TTC without fear of being ticketed because of the inability to pay - *but* it is also important to maintain social order. Transit should not be a "free for all" that encourages behaviour without impunity.

What I would suggest is individuals who are caught evading fare should be fined - and clearing that fine requires demonstration of low income/financial need. It would be a way to "catch" those who are in need and channel them to legitimate support programs (like a low income transit pass) while maintaining deterrence effects. Not enforcing rules is a fool's errand.

AoD

I agree w/the intent; but I don't think the process works for many of the most indigent.

How do you 'prove' you're low income? The answer, according to most government programs is by providing a copy of your tax return. The vast majority of the homeless don't file one.

Equally, the cost of 'Fair Pass'; the difficulty in accessing it (if you qualify); and rather needless cost in delivering the program lead me to oppose its existence.

What poor folks need is money (higher OW, higher ODSP, higher Minimum Wage); and affordable housing.

Rather than Fair Pass (which if you're not on OW/ODSP and a working-age adult, you don't qualify for) I would support a simple measure; a uniform fare of $2.75 irrespective of age; and a 40-ride per month cap. That would be $110 per month, which is cheaper than the current Fair Pass; cheaper than current student/seniors pass; much cheaper than the current adult pass and eliminates the need for any age verification, the need for any passes other than a Presto Card; no need to apply to obtain a benefit, everyone receives it; enforcement is easier and less contentious, and the administrative savings through same and through eliminating cash fares on buses; would provide a dividend in the amount of several million dollars per year ( likely tens of millions, but I'd need the TTC's internal price elasticity modelling and costs to be sure)

 

[Admiral Beez]

On every car??

On every streetcar. Essentially I want to end the idea that we trust riders to pay, but instead we ensure they pay, every time. And a pox of the herd on contrarians lining up to say why it's not possible. Instead, let's figure it out.

I tend to agree with your take - there should be a mechanism to support individuals with low income so that they can use the TTC without fear of being ticketed because of the inability to pay - *but* it is also important to maintain social order.

The TTC is not a charity, it's not a shelter. The mechanism to support those with low income should be taxpayer-funded (is there any other?) income support, so they can pay their fares like everyone else should.

 

[SubHuman]

What? I had no idea that the TTC was free until now.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-resumes-ticketing-fare-evasion-1.6761988

Why can’t we just have a fare collector/enforcer on every car?..

On TTC buses and streetcars, paying a fare seems to have become optional. I don't remember the last time I saw any kind of fare inspector or a driver paying any attention to whether or not someone was paying as they boarded. With the drivers now all behind plexiglass, I don't know if there would be any easy or cheap way to ensure almost everyone is paying, as it would likely require another employee or eventually having a fare gate (like the ones at subway stations) installed on every surface vehicle entrance.
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/fare-evasion-on-the-ttc.8628/post-1528164

There's also going to unavoidably be confusion and conflicts over how the two-hour transfer works.
https://www.ttc.ca/Fares-and-passes/PRESTO-on-the-TTC/Two-hour-transfer
It was okay in Mississauga and Brampton where everything is local buses. But with the TTC subway stations having paid-fare zones for passengers to transfer between subways and surface vehicles (the whole TTC system was built around the "one continuous trip" transfer with no stop-overs allowed, not transfers with an expiring time limit), it's problematic. For example, someone could board the TTC system at 1pm and travel to Sherway Gardens mall. They could then leave the mall on a bus at 2:59pm, a minute before their two hours expired, then take more than another two hours to get to Steeles and Markham Rd by transferring inside the paid-fare zones at subway stations.

Would the fare inspector near the end of the trip tell them their two-hour transfer had expired long ago, or is it okay? By then, their two-hour window would have opened more than 4 hours ago, and it could be argued they should have paid 2 or 3 fares, not just 1.
Would the TTC now need to install more fare gates at the subway stations for those transferring onto the subway? (and btw, also requiring a non-gated pathway for those exiting the bus to get to the street outside the station instead of boarding the subway.)

 

[goreckm]

My guess is, within a few months of fare enforcement, there will be some kind of struggle or takedown by the enforcement officers that will go viral on social media, causing no ticketing to be done anyways. This program is a waste of time and money. Better to reduce fares as mentioned above.

 

[Amare]

Havent we been here before with the TTC's promise to resume fare inspections....? Oh yeah, that's right we have and I see they really stuck to their word!:

Aug 2022:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/new-ttc-inspection-ticketing-protocols-fall-1.6560150

And that's back when apparently "3% of customers" werent paying their fares. Now all a sudden, the rate has jumped up to 13%. So it's clear either the TTC is underestimating how much they are losing to evasion, or they are skewing their own numbers (in my opinion, I believe it's the former rather then the latter).

 

[Northern Light]

Havent we been here before with the TTC's promise to resume fare inspections....? Oh yeah, that's right we have and I see they really stuck to their word!:

Aug 2022:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/new-ttc-inspection-ticketing-protocols-fall-1.6560150

And that's back when apparently "3% of customers" werent paying their fares. Now all a sudden, the rate has jumped up to 13%. So it's clear either the TTC is underestimating how much they are losing to evasion, or they are skewing their own numbers (in my opinion, I believe it's the former rather then the latter).

Which, by the way is why the TTC is showing ridership levels 'below actual'; even though they are capable of seeing actual to a great degree, because the combination of 'Vision' software, step counters; and if they are using them, axle weight monitors can clearly show the real load factor.

TTC: There's lots of room on our subways in late evenings, our fare data shows a decline in riders.

Riders: The train leaving Y/B could barely board all the people on the platform, there are more standees than paid passengers

Reality: The TTC counts different ways depending on who they are talking to and what they are aiming to achieve or cover up.

 

[T3G]

On every streetcar. Essentially I want to end the idea that we trust riders to pay, but instead we ensure they pay, every time. And a pox of the herd on contrarians lining up to say why it's not possible. Instead, let's figure it out.

It's not contrarian to say that it's not possible, it's just not.

Ensuring all of the hundreds of thousands of riders who use the TTC every single day pay every single time is completely impossible to do. There's no two ways about it, it just is.

There are ways to minimize the amount of people who don't pay, such as forcing everyone to board through a single doorway, and posting armed guards at every single turnstile, every single possible public and private entrance point to the system, but if we find ourselves at that point we have reached deranged levels of authoritarianism that have no place in a civilized society, to say nothing of how slow and thereby utterly worthless we would make the transit system with such a scheme, and how much it would cost.

How about the government does its job and just funds the system???? There's always going to be someone who wants a free ride. Instead of throwing all of society's resources to ensure that they do not get it, how about we fund the system so that entitled yuppies who feel it is not within their responsibilities to pay for the services they receive don't cause as much damage?