Fare evasion on the TTC...

[Northern Light]

That sounds...like a terrible idea.

I'm not suggesting it as preferred alternative; I'm saying it beats resorting to needless violence.

If you have a different preference..............

 

[Admiral Beez]

One question, how many of these fare evaders would otherwise be paying passengers? Many times I’ve observed fare evasion it’s been seemingly homeless folks who wouldn’t use transit at all if they had to pay. Unless we’re looking at full vehicles turning riders away, fare evasion is only a loss if those evaders would have paid otherwise. It’s not like shoplifting, where the act costs the seller both the wholesale and retail value.

I suspect we enforce fare evasion not because we want to convert evaders Into payers, but because we’re terrified that fare evasion becomes normalized. That’s why the TTC hires enforcement goons and applies massive fines (x10 the average parking ticket fine) to keep us fare paying riders terrified of stepping out of line.

 

[Voltz]

I will be saying, "I told you so", if and when this shown to be something more that just a fare dispute, and to have been justified.

 

[Steve X]

When I was a lad in London, UK my grandfather was a doubledecker bus driver. On the bus was a second employee, the fare collector. Fare evasion was nigh impossible. So, put a second staffer on each POP car, and reduce the number of doors for entry. Basically take us back three generations.

That would cost $20-30 million every year to staff a second person on a streetcar.

One question, how many of these fare evaders would otherwise be paying passengers? Many times I’ve observed fare evasion it’s been seemingly homeless folks who wouldn’t use transit at all if they had to pay. Unless we’re looking at full vehicles turning riders away, fare evasion is only a loss if those evaders would have paid otherwise. It’s not like shoplifting, where the act costs the seller both the wholesale and retail value.

I suspect we enforce fare evasion not because we want to convert evaders Into payers, but because we’re terrified that fare evasion becomes normalized. That’s why the TTC hires enforcement goons and applies massive fines (x10 the average parking ticket fine) to keep us fare paying riders terrified of stepping out of line.

Barely any. The way TTC puts it like they can recoup the money if they could be fined is definitely false. People aren't paying cause they either can't afford it or likely taking a short trip that they would otherwise walked.

Well, there is a carrying cost of each rider. It takes a little more power to move a person compared to empty weight. If they are moving 10% fare evaders, the operating cost would go up.

 

[W. K. Lis]

One question, how many of these fare evaders would otherwise be paying passengers? Many times I’ve observed fare evasion it’s been seemingly homeless folks who wouldn’t use transit at all if they had to pay. Unless we’re looking at full vehicles turning riders away, fare evasion is only a loss if those evaders would have paid otherwise. It’s not like shoplifting, where the act costs the seller both the wholesale and retail value.

I suspect we enforce fare evasion not because we want to convert evaders Into payers, but because we’re terrified that fare evasion becomes normalized. That’s why the TTC hires enforcement goons and applies massive fines (x10 the average parking ticket fine) to keep us fare paying riders terrified of stepping out of line.

This article and quotes are from December 18, 2018. From link.

Anti-poverty advocates in Toronto say they are concerned that a phaseout of TTC tokens will make it more difficult for the homeless, low income people and seniors to access public transit.

TTC tokens are to be discontinued at the end of 2019 (postponed, but not selling at subway stations). In their place, the TTC will offer a single ride Presto paper ticket that will have an expiry date. The Presto tickets, to be introduced in 2019, will be sold through fare vending machines at subway stations and at Shoppers Drug Mart stores for $3.25, the same price as a cash fare.

Concerns about the impact of the change were raised at a public meeting in downtown Toronto on Tuesday. The TTC and Metrolinx, the provincial transportation agency, jointly hosted the meeting at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre.

Members of social service agencies said they are concerned about the availability of tickets, their expiry date, whether bulk sales will be available, and their affordability. They say how people access, pay for and use TTC fares are all issues.

According to the Fair Fare Coalition, which represents Toronto organizations that work with and support people living on low incomes, social service agencies in the city distribute between 3,000 and 30,000 tokens a year to clients who use their programs and services.

The TTC said it is still finalizing details about the Presto paper ticket.

"Certainly, tonight will be a good opportunity to hear feedback from the participants in the room," Heather Brown, acting manager of customer communications for the TTC, said on Tuesday.

"Because we are still finalizing the details, we will certainly listen to feedback that is provided and see where we can make things as smooth as possible for people."

Brown said the meeting was held to enable members of the public to express concerns. Issues raised by participants included bulk sales, status of the Presto rollout, locations to buy Presto tickets and the cost of Presto cards. Brown said the TTC recognizes that not all of its customers live near a Shoppers Drug Mart.

"We are working with our social service agencies," she said.

The Presto ticket will not be available for bulk sales until June 2019. Presto tickets bought at Shoppers Drug Mart will not have an expiry date, while those bought at fare vending machines and through bulk sales will.

The device issuing tickets at Shoppers Drug Mart has a "limitation" that means it is not able to print an expiry date, she added.

"We will be talking high level about it this evening, but there is still more work to be done around what that bulk distribution will look like for social service agencies. There are still discussions happening."

The Fair Fare Coalition wants Presto tickets to be: widely available at convenient locations across Toronto; affordable at current token or ticket concession rates; available for bulk purchase at a discounted rate; able to be transferred from one person to another; with no expiry date; and available for purchase with cash.

Metrolinx 'actively working toward solutions'

In a emailed statement on Tuesday, Metrolinx said it is looking at ease of use and access, including affordability, as it makes decisions about the rollout of Presto. The agency said it is listening to feedback from customers.

"For many of the concerns, we're already actively working toward solutions," Metrolinx said.

For example, the agency said it recognizes that the $6 fee for a Presto card could be a barrier for some transit riders and it is exploring the idea of providing cards and discount codes to social service agencies to distribute.

"Having these conversations is a key part of modernizing the fare system on the TTC so it works better for everyone," Metrolinx added.

The meeting featured a presentation, followed by a question and answer session with a moderated panel. The panel was to include Kirsten Watson, TTC deputy chief executive officer of operations, and Annalise Czerny, Metrolinx executive vice president of Presto.

 

[Johnny Au]

All TTC vehicles have posters that warn would-be evaders of fines.

Announcements in subway stations also mention this.

Won't get caught

Chances are you will.

Yes, fare inspectors will appear when least expected. They are known to leave a streetcar and enter another streetcar. Therefore, if you decide to let the first streetcar with fare inspectors pass and board the second streetcar without fare inspectors, guess what? The same fare inspectors will enter the second streetcar!

How do I know? I saw a fare evader being really upset when the fare inspectors entered the streetcar I am on and I heard the commotion. When the same fare inspectors came to me, they scanned my Presto card and told me that I'm golden (I paid my fare beforehand).

 

[Steve X]

The problem right now is they don't have a good plan to remove offenders refusing to leave. In situations like today, it's probably better to have the cops arrest and remove the intoxicated individual while they move on to inspect more riders. It seems like whenever they caught someone, they spent a great deal of time with them. They can't get the homeless to pay so why spend some much time with them?

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

All TTC vehicles have posters that warn would-be evaders of fines.

Announcements in subway stations also mention this.

Won't get caught

Chances are you will.

Yes, fare inspectors will appear when least expected. They are known to leave a streetcar and enter another streetcar. Therefore, if you decide to let the first streetcar with fare inspectors pass and board the second streetcar without fare inspectors, guess what? The same fare inspectors will enter the second streetcar!

How do I know? I saw a fare evader being really upset when the fare inspectors entered the streetcar I am on and I heard the commotion. When the same fare inspectors came to me, they scanned my Presto card and told me that I'm golden (I paid my fare beforehand).

I'm not a fare evader, however, that ad is kind of false considering that until fairly recently, I rarely saw the inspectors.

 

[Admiral Beez]

That would cost $20-30 million every year to staff a second person on a streetcar.

So do it. Cancel free student fares and stop evasion and you’re likely halfway there. Subway stations need a security guard for gate jumpers, but staffing at some stations can also be reduced.

The second TTC employee on the streetcar would also address the safety concerns now that the driver is safely sequestered away behind glass, whilst the passengers are exposed. I used to tell my daughters, if there’s a creep leering and making suggestive gestures at you, go sit by the driver. Now the driver hasn’t a clue what’s going on inside his/her now 3x as long vehicle.

What do these fare evasion guys cost? Put that towards a fare collector in every streetcar.

 

[crs1026]

^TTC has a bad habit of using fare inspectors as human turnstiles at transfer points. They don’t roam the system to create a true random check.

Canadians have an odd habit of not wanting to appear like dicks over small things. So we write down traffic tickets to the bare minimum, we side with the underdog when we see a power figure like a fare inspector “hassling” someone. The police, for budgetary reasons, seem to be shedding all sorts of lesser enforcement duties especially anything that consumes officers’ time. That shouldn’t mean that those offenses are now trivial and excusable. (Bike theft is an even better example)

I have observed GO and TTC fare inspectors accosting people who had not paid. The excuses offered were consistently lame to non existent. I have to believe that a great deal of fare evasion is bad behaviour rather than desperate circumstances.

I am all in favour of some sort of fare relief for the poorest members of our society, but that needs to be handled through some form of subsidy or discount sale or free distribution of fare media. We can’t just declare fare payment to be optional and just let people on without their accepting an onus to pay.

I am also concerned with ttc’s laissez faire attitude to aggressive or disruptive passengers. The CLRV/ALRV operators generally ignored it (for their own safety) and now that they are in a closed cab it’s worse. On several occasions in the past year I have had concerns for my safety and the safety of others on the streetcar. Some are just mentally ill people who may behave oddly without any real inclination to violence, but some do harass others physically or verbally. And it’s very hard to know who is a risk and who isn’t. I don’t see much of an answer except requiring security people to approach and potentially have a confrontation with such folks. Security should be trained and accountable to de-escalate where possible, but fundamentally I don’t have a problem with their behaving as “bouncers” who manhandle difficult people to the sidewalk (which is different than “arresting” them). We can’t halt all service to talk down one person who is looking to stick it to the man.

I’m not heartless, but there is such a thing as being “too nice”. People should not be allowed to take advantage. I see bad behaviour more often than I see situations where my social conscience kicks in.

- Paul

 

[TransitBart]

^TTC has a bad habit of using fare inspectors as human turnstiles at transfer points. They don’t roam the system to create a true random check.

Canadians have an odd habit of not wanting to appear like dicks over small things. So we write down traffic tickets to the bare minimum, we side with the underdog when we see a power figure like a fare inspector “hassling” someone. The police, for budgetary reasons, seem to be shedding all sorts of lesser enforcement duties especially anything that consumes officers’ time. That shouldn’t mean that those offenses are now trivial and excusable. (Bike theft is an even better example)

I have observed GO and TTC fare inspectors accosting people who had not paid. The excuses offered were consistently lame to non existent. I have to believe that a great deal of fare evasion is bad behaviour rather than desperate circumstances.

I am all in favour of some sort of fare relief for the poorest members of our society, but that needs to be handled through some form of subsidy or discount sale or free distribution of fare media. We can’t just declare fare payment to be optional and just let people on without their accepting an onus to pay.

I am also concerned with ttc’s laissez faire attitude to aggressive or disruptive passengers. The CLRV/ALRV operators generally ignored it (for their own safety) and now that they are in a closed cab it’s worse. On several occasions in the past year I have had concerns for my safety and the safety of others on the streetcar. Some are just mentally ill people who may behave oddly without any real inclination to violence, but some do harass others physically or verbally. And it’s very hard to know who is a risk and who isn’t. I don’t see much of an answer except requiring security people to approach and potentially have a confrontation with such folks. Security should be trained and accountable to de-escalate where possible, but fundamentally I don’t have a problem with their behaving as “bouncers” who manhandle difficult people to the sidewalk (which is different than “arresting” them). We can’t halt all service to talk down one person who is looking to stick it to the man.

I’m not heartless, but there is such a thing as being “too nice”. People should not be allowed to take advantage. I see bad behaviour more often than I see situations where my social conscience kicks in.

- Paul

I ride mostly on the weekend. I see people getting on the 510 who simply board as though it were a subway and they had paid at street level. This has nothing to do with desperate circumstances as @crs1026 has said. It does have everything to do with people who are too special to pay, think the probability of being caught is low, and to whom the potential penalty is meaningless. It is a culture of non-compliance and lawlessness however minor compared to greater crimes.

The entire homeless discussion here is a big sidebar. The people I am speaking of have been visibly shopping.

 

[SubHuman]

...Subway stations need a security guard for gate jumpers, but staffing at some stations can also be reduced...
The second TTC employee on the streetcar would also address the safety concerns now that the driver is safely sequestered ...

The highest percentage of fare evasion is probably on streetcars, but I was surprised to notice after someone pointed it out to me how common it has become on TTC buses. As I mentioned in a post last year, I started listening for that "rejected" noise and I still have yet to take a single TTC bus trip, even a short one, where I haven't heard it, usually many times. Everyone sees others getting away with it and some think they shouldn't have to pay either, and they use their empty PrestoCard as a perpetual ride-for-free-pass.
I spent the last week in Brampton and Mississauga and the difference is very noticeable. I was behind a guy getting onto a Züm 501 bus in the downtown Brampton terminal, and when his card made the 'rejected' noise, he turned around and got off. I don't think I've ever seen that happen on a TTC bus.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The way the stop fare evasion is to collect the fare before entry is permitted. Everything else is chasing evasion after the fact. Here’s a turnstile on a Moscow streetcar, for example. No evasion here. Prevent entry at exit doors, and you’re all set.

Some other examples of active fare evasion tools, as opposed to reactive or passive. You can still have a operator-activated door for wheelchairs and strollers.

 

[crs1026]

I really, really like the idea of putting more Presto machines on the sidewalk at bus and streetcar stops, to reduce the "machine is broken, couldn't get to it" syndrome.
Even considering the effects of vandalism and weather, I bet they would be more reliable than on-vehicle machines. Far less vibration and wear and tear.

- Paul

 

[SubHuman]

The way to stop fare evasion is to collect the fare before entry is permitted. Everything else is chasing evasion after the fact. Here’s a turnstile on a Moscow streetcar, for example...

I've never been anywhere near Moscow or seen something like that actually inside a transit vehicle, but the thought did occur to me that some kind of fare activated gate or turnstile would eventually be needed if the drivers (or other employee) were no longer acting as fare collectors, which seems to have become the case with the TTC. But I doubt we'll see TTC surface vehicles modified in that way any time in the near future.