TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[T3G]

On every streetcar. Essentially I want to end the idea that we trust riders to pay, but instead we ensure they pay, every time. And a pox of the herd on contrarians lining up to say why it's not possible. Instead, let's figure it out.

It's not contrarian to say that it's not possible, it's just not.

Ensuring all of the hundreds of thousands of riders who use the TTC every single day pay every single time is completely impossible to do. There's no two ways about it, it just is.

There are ways to minimize the amount of people who don't pay, such as forcing everyone to board through a single doorway, and posting armed guards at every single turnstile, every single possible public and private entrance point to the system, but if we find ourselves at that point we have reached deranged levels of authoritarianism that have no place in a civilized society, to say nothing of how slow and thereby utterly worthless we would make the transit system with such a scheme, and how much it would cost.

How about the government does its job and just funds the system???? There's always going to be someone who wants a free ride. Instead of throwing all of society's resources to ensure that they do not get it, how about we fund the system so that entitled yuppies who feel it is not within their responsibilities to pay for the services they receive don't cause as much damage?

 

[Amare]

Which, by the way is why the TTC is showing ridership levels 'below actual'; even though they are capable of seeing actual to a great degree, because the combination of 'Vision' software, step counters; and if they are using them, axle weight monitors can clearly show the real load factor.

TTC: There's lots of room on our subways in late evenings, our fare data shows a decline in riders.

Riders: The train leaving Y/B could barely board all the people on the platform, there are more standees than paid passengers

Reality: The TTC counts different ways depending on who they are talking to and what they are aiming to achieve or cover up.

I'm being very kind in saying that the TTC has a very troubling history of properly using the ridership/fare data they have on hand, which as you alluded to can be very accurate whichever the method may be. Especially when compared to 20 years ago.

They have the data on hand, but fail in virtually every way to actually use it properly to address the bigger issues that they face. For instance, they know where the highest amounts of fare evasion happen across the city, but we'll be damned if they actually put fare inspectors in those areas more frequently. Let alone get fare inspectors out across the system in general (which is needed in general because if you dont have a deterrence mechanism in place, the problem will only magnify).

Regarding ridership data, the way they use it is a laughable joke.

 

[DSC]

There have been a few comments around here wondering why the new overhead on Wellington west of Yonge was all removed. As I suspected it is because they have now decided they need new poles!

WELLINGTON ST W from LN W YONGE N WELLINGTON to YORK ST

Id:R6478169

Closure Type: Hazard

Time Frame: Daily

From: February 20, 2023

Until: March 21, 2023

Hours: 8:00 pm to 7:00 pm

Severity Impact: Minor

Road Class: Minor Arterial

Description: Toronto-TMC: WB Lane, EB Lane occupied due to 34 new TTC pole installations along Wellington St. from York St to Yonge

 

[Northern Light]

There have been a few comments around here wondering why the new overhead on Wellington west of Yonge was all removed. As I suspected it is bercause they have now decided they need new poles!

WELLINGTON ST W from LN W YONGE N WELLINGTON to YORK ST

Id:R6478169

Closure Type: Hazard

Time Frame: Daily

From: February 20, 2023

Until: March 21, 2023

Hours: 8:00 pm to 7:00 pm

Severity Impact: Minor

Road Class: Minor Arterial

Description: Toronto-TMC: WB Lane, EB Lane occupied due to 34 new TTC pole installations along Wellington St. from York St to Yonge

Holy @#$#

This was not the moment to figure that out!

 

[DSC]

Holy @#$#

This was not the moment to figure that out!

Well, it is not really urgent yet as they still need overhead east of Yonge and probably cannot run streetcars on Wellington until the Scott/Wellington intersection is finished anyway.

 

[Amare]

A lot of news involving this ineptly run organization these days; news coming out that the clown CEO is asking for an even larger spending authority for emergency contracts and purchases to up to $15 million. Personally I wouldn't trust the guy to mange $1000 of my money, but the TTC board has approved it and it's now pending approval by city council:

Toronto, Canada & Global Breaking News – CP24

Most recent News News business news stories and video from CP24

www.cp24.com

 

[max]

Well, it is not really urgent yet as they still need overhead east of Yonge and probably cannot run streetcars on Wellington until the Scott/Wellington intersection is finished anyway.

While I agree with you that even if the poles were there its not as if they could run tomorrow, the TTC just seems to keep starting overhead conversions and not finishing them. There's the bustitution of the 503 to allow work on Kingston, but for months it hasn't looked like anything started. Despite a years long diversion on King Street west of Dufferin during which some work could have taken place, progress has been anemic, and only in the past few weeks has work appeared to make serious progress. The work to string up overhead to enable operations at Sunnyside Loop had been long delayed until the sewer collapse forced immediate action, thankfully.

This pattern is very frustrating, and appears as if buying a few electric buses has caused the TTC to forget the majority of their electric fleet isn't battery powered and requires some damn wires. Luckily it seems as if someone notices before they can publish a schedule.

 

[W. K. Lis]

While I agree with you that even if the poles were there its not as if they could run tomorrow, the TTC just seems to keep starting overhead conversions and not finishing them. There's the bustitution of the 503 to allow work on Kingston, but for months it hasn't looked like anything started. Despite a years long diversion on King Street west of Dufferin during which some work could have taken place, progress has been anemic, and only in the past few weeks has work appeared to make serious progress. The work to string up overhead to enable operations at Sunnyside Loop had been long delayed until the sewer collapse forced immediate action, thankfully.

This pattern is very frustrating, and appears as if buying a few electric buses has caused the TTC to forget the majority of their electric fleet isn't battery powered and requires some damn wires. Luckily it seems as if someone notices before they can publish a schedule.

When the overhead lines comes down on active streetcar lines, they are able to put them back up (with new wires, insulators, etc.) within an hour or tow.

 

[DSC]

While I agree with you that even if the poles were there its not as if they could run tomorrow, the TTC just seems to keep starting overhead conversions and not finishing them. There's the bustitution of the 503 to allow work on Kingston, but for months it hasn't looked like anything started. Despite a years long diversion on King Street west of Dufferin during which some work could have taken place, progress has been anemic, and only in the past few weeks has work appeared to make serious progress. The work to string up overhead to enable operations at Sunnyside Loop had been long delayed until the sewer collapse forced immediate action, thankfully.

This pattern is very frustrating, and appears as if buying a few electric buses has caused the TTC to forget the majority of their electric fleet isn't battery powered and requires some damn wires. Luckily it seems as if someone notices before they can publish a schedule.

What is, maybe, the more interesting question is how the TTC decision to move to pantographs led to the (totally unmentioned) need to put up 100% new overhead and many, many new poles. I doubt strongly that those at TTC planning this were unaware that pantographs would bring both advantages and disadvantages but it is all too typical of them (and probably most 'planners) to get the first decision (to move to pantographs) made and only then 'discover' that there were then other (expensive) that will be required. I think we all may be in favour of "platform edge doors' but I bet the price figures we have been given have ignored all the associated expenses that will be essential if we move in that direction. (ventilation in particular!)

 

[turbanplanner]

While I agree, in theory, that fare enforcement ought to exit for the reasons you outline above..........

And that regardless, is not the message TTC Riders should put out.....

I would also say.......

1) The maximum fine of $435 is a problem, when the maximum fine for illegally parking/overstaying the proverbial meter, in most of the City is $40.
So freeloading on transit is treated up to 11x more harshly than freeloading parking. Ummm, not a good look either.

2) What percentage of the freeloaders are homeless or otherwise so desperately poor that they neither can or nor will pay any ticket? In which case, what's the utility of issuing it? I grant there are assorted teens and middle income earners also freeloading, and penalizing them is much more reasonable; though, one might wonder at what cost?

3) We've set up a cumbersome fare structure that's slightly more expensive than it ought to be; easy to breach, both on purpose and accidentally ( 2 hour time limits, too many concession groupings); while I doubt this is a material factor in evasion rates overall, a simplified structure with better value that's easier to enforce would be an overall improvement and likely reduce evasion at the margins.

Those all sound like non issues, If I’m illegally parked then I could get caught the entire time.

I’ve stayed 10 minutes passed in a spot and was immediately ticketed, fare enforcement is basically hoping that anyone who doesn’t pay did it on a streetcar and is heading union or Spadina. It’s basically impossible to enforce people not just walking in threw up a bus bay.

If homeless people or whoever getting a ticket, then that’s what the court is for, they can exercise discretion.

 

[max]

What is, maybe, the more interesting question is how the TTC decision to move to pantographs led to the (totally unmentioned) need to put up 100% new overhead and many, many new poles. I doubt strongly that those at TTC planning this were unaware that pantographs would bring both advantages and disadvantages but it is all too typical of them (and probably most 'planners) to get the first decision (to move to pantographs) made and only then 'discover' that there were then other (expensive) that will be required. I think we all may be in favour of "platform edge doors' but I bet the price figures we have been given have ignored all the associated expenses that will be essential if we move in that direction. (ventilation in particular!)

I don't know why pantographs would have driven the decision for new poles as the overhead they ripped down all appeared to be panto compatible. At the curve at York it's pretty evident: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.646...4!1s6vNW2kCjO0rPvYB8z_JqYg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Along Wellington it's harder to see since the streetview car drove directly over the tracks, but a sidewalk capture shows the newer style hangers here:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

In my memory it was upgraded by the time the western Wellington track construction had wrapped up

Seeing that the poles east of Yonge are all cantilevered I wonder if someone's just suddenly decided they want it west of Yonge too. A ridiculous waste of money if so.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Ensuring all of the hundreds of thousands of riders who use the TTC every single day pay every single time is completely impossible to do.

But does that mean we should just stop trying? The TTC has entirely stopped fare enforcement, presumably in agreement with your thinking above, it’s impossible, so don’t bother. I feel like such a dupe now having paid my fare every time.

We have three options.

1) Make everyone pay the fare
2) Make only some people pay the fare
2) Make no one pay the fare

We aspire to the first, while hoping for a high proportion on the second and ultimately accept the third.

 

[Undead]

On a different note, the spot cleaning is kinda useless. At Finch, there's two TTC employees who sweep random patches of floor in a single car on each train.

Sometimes they'll leave behind pieces of trash out in the open which previously were peacefully resting under the seats.

I remember spot cleaning being done the same way pre pandemic. In particular, on line 4 they had one guy dragging a mop randomly through one of the cars. Seems so futile I can't help ask why bother.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

On a different note, the spot cleaning is kinda useless. At Finch, there's two TTC employees who sweep random patches of floor in a single car on each train.

Sometimes they'll leave behind pieces of trash out in the open which previously were peacefully resting under the seats.

I remember spot cleaning being done the same way pre pandemic. In particular, on line 4 they had one guy dragging a mop randomly through one of the cars. Seems so futile I can't help ask why bother.

The issue here is the QC of the work (and the workers), not the philosophy of spot cleaning itself.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Havent we been here before with the TTC's promise to resume fare inspections....? Oh yeah, that's right we have and I see they really stuck to their word!:

I've certainly seen fare inspectors on streetcars since that 2022 article. I thought the current report was reinstating fines.

There seems to be a view here, that no one is paying fares. And yet, most people I see boarding the streetcar are tapping. And when the fare inspector gets on, I don't see a mass of people thronging to the doors, or a loud waves of Presto machines beeping. Yeah, sometimes a single rider gets a good talking to and warning.

But does that mean we should just stop trying? The TTC has entirely stopped fare enforcement, presumably in agreement with your thinking above, it’s impossible, so don’t bother. I feel like such a dupe now having paid my fare every time.

Do you really use the streetcar though? Once in a while, you mention in a thread about planning to use transit, planning how to use it, and then posting after the fact, that something happened that you ended up driving or something ... I'm not sure I've actually seen you follow-up in one of those threads by actually using transit!If you do, you'd see most everyone tapping - at least other than in fare-paid zones.

To suggest that money could be saved on any vehicle by putting more 24-hour fare inspection on it is a fallacy - even if all the non-compliant riders were suddenly paying, it might (but probably wouldn't) cover the wages. But that assumes there is blood in that unemployed or homeless stone.

Now maybe if the TTC got the revenue from those $400 fines ...