TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[TheTigerMaster]

Why would they need to connect the suburban LRT system with the urban streetcar network?

I don't know. Make up a few hypothetical scenarios

Lets use the Waterfront LRT for example. Assuming Metrolinx that builds it, will they build it to TTC spec so that it can share existing TTC facilities? Or will they build the Waterfront line in total isolation from the rest of the TTC light rail network by using standard gauge, so that they can maintain compatibility with the rest of the ML LRV fleet? Either way we end up with a fragmented network. Go with the first option and we'll have a small set of Metrolinx LRVs that are different from the rest. Go with the latter option and then Toronto is stuck with an LRT line that is permanently and needlessly isolated from the rest of Toronto's light rail network.

Or lets say that the Jane LRT is built by Metrolinx one day. What if one day planners decide it would be a good idea to interline Jane (ML) and St. Clair (TTC) LRT lines. Can they do that? Nope. Not even an option.

Or if it's the City of Toronto were to build the Jane LRT it would presumably be to TTC spec. The good thing is that it would be compatible with the larger TTC network. The bad thing is that the Jane LRT will never be able to carry light rail vehicles from the Finch West LRT down to Eglinton LRT for maintenance or whatever the need be.

And of course if/when Metrolinx and TTC do combine into one agency, Metrolinx/TTC will need to spend additional cash to maintain and purchase two different sets of LRVs when it comes time to replace our Flexity vehicles rather than maintaing/replacing one unified fleet.

These potential problem could have been completely avoided if they had just went with the gauge that the far larger TTC network has been using forever instead of fragmenting Toronto into different gauge "territories".

Isn't it more likely that you'll see Waterloo LRVs in Toronto yards and Toronto LRVs in Waterloo yards? Or do you suggest that Waterloo use Toronto gauge as well!x

If Metrolinx went with TTC gauge in Toronto I don't see why they shouldn't in Waterloo as well if it's cheaper to maintain a unified fleet.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Waterfront LRT was really just going to be a st. Clair style streetcar ROW. It was always going to be TTC gauge and would have used the new streetcars. Would presumably been TTC run as well, but it never got far enough for them to figure that out.

 

[nfitz]

Or lets say that the Jane LRT is built by Metrolinx one day. What if one day planners decide it would be a good idea to interline Jane (ML) and St. Clair (TTC) LRT lines. Can they do that? Nope. Not even an option.

Clearly Waterfront West would have been TTC gauge.

If they ever do build a Jane LRT (which seems unlikely, especially on the surface between Eglinton and Bloor), then there's always the options of simply regauging St. Clair. St. Clair is the one piece of track operated independently from the rest of the network currently. It's not particularly long, and wouldn't cost much just to change the gauge. The whole thing only cost $60 million, and much of that was the road works, platforms, etc. Simply changing the gauge and putting in a couple of crossovers would surely be less than $10 million ... a fraction of the $1 billion or so that Jane would cost.

But even then, what's Jane ... 30 years in the future?

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Transit City light rail vehicles (Bombardier Freedom models) would not be able to run on the downtown streetcar tracks, even if they re-gauge them. CLRV, ALRV, and the new Bombardier Flexity Outlook streetcars are 2.540m wide*. The new Bombardier Freedom light rail vehicles will be 2.65 m wide, more than 10 cm wider. The Transit City vehicles will not be able to have the width clearance needed, with sway and devilstrip (the space between opposite tracks) measurements taken in account.

The streetcars could run on Transit City, after re-gauging. However, there would be a wider gap between platforms and the entryway on the vehicles.

*Montréal Metro train cars are also 2.540 m wide. Toronto Subway train cars, on the other hand, are 3.150 m wide.

 

[nfitz]

The Transit City light rail vehicles (Bombardier Freedom models) would not be able to run on the downtown streetcar tracks, even if they re-gauge them. CLRV, ALRV, and the new Bombardier Flexity Outlook streetcars are 2.540m wide*. The new Bombardier Freedom light rail vehicles will be 2.65 m wide, more than 10 cm wider. The Transit City vehicles will not be able to have the width clearance needed, with sway and devilstrip (the space between opposite tracks) measurements taken in account.

As far as I know, it's only an issue on curves. I think you could run them on St. Clair if you eliminate the loops, and do a bit of modification on the curve into St. Clair station. St. Clair West is more of a challenge though ...

Still, unlikely ... most likely Jane and St. Clair would simply not connect.

 

[Platform 27]

The streetcars could run on Transit City, after re-gauging. However, there would be a wider gap between platforms and the entryway on the vehicles.

No, they wouldn't, because not only would they have power supply issues, there's also the not-exactly-minor problem that they'd have no doors to open every time they met an island platform. And with no rear operator cab things would get interesting when they'd reach the end of line.

If Transit City had been built to the scale that was intended when the gauge decision was made, we'd be talking about 200+ vehicles on eachof the Transit City fleet and legacy streetcar fleets alone. That means you could make one of the fleets vanish and still have the largest LRV fleet in the continent. (I believe next biggest would be Calgary with 190ish LRVs, but I stand to be corrected.) There's little by way of economies of scale left when you're already that big.

 

[DKsan]

If Metrolinx went with TTC gauge in Toronto I don't see why they shouldn't in Waterloo as well if it's cheaper to maintain a unified fleet.

The KW ION LRT will be using shared track with an existing freight rail line (which the Region owns, and sees a very small amount of actual freight usage), which is why it needs to be standard (see here the second page, top picture).

 

[BurlOak]

They did standard gauge as it cuts costs on vehicles as you can buy off the shelf LRVs.

I always found that a little odd. Either you buy something off the shelf and then begin using it right away because you know exactly what it can do, or you buy a custom made made which requires testing to ensure that it met the specifications.

 

[ShonTron]

As far as I know, it's only an issue on curves. I think you could run them on St. Clair if you eliminate the loops, and do a bit of modification on the curve into St. Clair station. St. Clair West is more of a challenge though ...

Still, unlikely ... most likely Jane and St. Clair would simply not connect.

I doubt Jane will ever be built, especially south of Mount Dennis. I would still like to see St. Clair extended at the very least to Runnymede, ideally to Jane or Scarlett.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Clearly Waterfront West would have been TTC gauge.

If they ever do build a Jane LRT (which seems unlikely, especially on the surface between Eglinton and Bloor), then there's always the options of simply regauging St. Clair. St. Clair is the one piece of track operated independently from the rest of the network currently. It's not particularly long, and wouldn't cost much just to change the gauge. The whole thing only cost $60 million, and much of that was the road works, platforms, etc. Simply changing the gauge and putting in a couple of crossovers would surely be less than $10 million ... a fraction of the $1 billion or so that Jane would cost.

But even then, what's Jane ... 30 years in the future?

I doubt Jane will ever be built, especially south of Mount Dennis. I would still like to see St. Clair extended at the very least to Runnymede, ideally to Jane or Scarlett.

I'm not as pessimistic about Jane as you two. I'd wait until we see what Tory and Chow bring to the table with their campaigns. From what I've heard both campaigns will apparently be very serious about transit (beyond drawing lines on a map and hoping for pixie dust to pay for it all). If one or both of the candidates do bring a funding strategy to the table, we could very well see Jane and other lines sooner than we'd expect.

I do agree that Jane south of Mt. Dennis is unlikely to happen. The LRT would need to go underground at that point. Justifying that expenditure would be difficult.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I always found that a little odd. Either you buy something off the shelf and then begin using it right away because you know exactly what it can do, or you buy a custom made made which requires testing to ensure that it met the specifications.

Is there such thing as buying an LRV "off the shelf". I've always been given the impression that each order is custom.

 

[junctionist]

I doubt Jane will ever be built, especially south of Mount Dennis. I would still like to see St. Clair extended at the very least to Runnymede, ideally to Jane or Scarlett.

That should be done in the near feature. St. Clair is a main street with lousy transit service between Gunns Loop and Scarlett. It's only a couple of kilometres but requires 2 transfers on buses that only run every half hour or so.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That should be done in the near feature. St. Clair is a main street with lousy transit service between Gunns Loop and Scarlett. It's only a couple of kilometres but requires 2 transfers on buses that only run every half hour or so.

With the Stockyards opening up in the spring of 2014, it may make sense to put in a St. Clair shuttle bus between Gunns loop and Scarlett Road, until a St. Clair extension is built. Unfortunately, the extension would be have to share the roadway. Unless they reuse the old Toronto-Guelph Radial right-of-way, located just north of St. Clair and now used to distribute electricity.

 

[ehlow]

What do you guys think of implementing heated shelters at bus, streetcar, or outdoor subway stops (like Davisville, Rosedale)?

The ones at the subway stops could be in a glass enclosure with a door. The surface stops could do that if there is enough space, or just use heat lamps similar to the ones used on patios.

I think that the new York region Viva highway 7 BRT has this, as well as Ottawa.

They could just start with stops that have the highest ridership maybe, and/or LRT surface stops. Maybe they could only be activated when the temperature drops below some threshold.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Drop some GO style heated shelters at major TTC stops with the space, it may work.

I'd be concerned about them getting damaged or otherwise abused in the off hours though. I have often walked into the shelters at Kennedy GO only for it to reek of weed from someone hotboxing it.