TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[44 North]

^ So how did we ever get this far without them? And how are others more advanced doing it with no cab at all? Anyone heard of glass partitions? You know, like on the Flexities. Not in Canada you say? Pity...

And the operators on the Dockland Light Rail and the other Movia platforms other than the TRs....must be having accidents all the time, and their unions must not be effective if one is to believe the hype being touted by some.

Lots more models on the web:

I hear what you're saying. And with the Movia it's really such a broad platform of a vehicle put to use in many different ways. With things like Line 3 I've heard people say there's no modern train that can handle its tight curves or narrow profile, and that the Innovia or Flexity are the only option available for a vehilce upgrade. But lo and behold the Movia, just like the TR, is a versatile train used eight ways from Sunday. Can be wide, or narrow, or can have added articulation for tight turns (like the C30 used in Stockholm). All using the same family of vehicle on Line 1 today. All up to the buyer.

Still though with an operator on board for the doors they'd still have to go from the left side to the right for island platforms and side platform stations. Certainly doable as seen today, but a front or rear cab makes it easier (not that I support it as my second paragraph laments).

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

What is the big deal about seeing out the front of a subway train? You can't see out the front of a go train even when the cab cars weren't full length there wasn't a window at the front of them. Yes, they are nice for kids and rail fans but are they really necessary to have?

 

[steveintoronto]

What is the big deal about seeing out the front of a subway train? You can't see out the front of a go train even when the cab cars weren't full length there wasn't a window at the front of them. Yes, they are nice for kids and rail fans but are they really necessary to have?

Are you talking about full width cabs?

Here's a reminder of where this all started:

I'd give them more time than TRs being moved to Line 2, we should be expecting new trains in less than a decade given the SSE and the perceived age of the T1s.
It'll be sad not being able to sit at the front of the train anymore, but times must change.

Depends on how they design the new trains. Why do we need a full cab if the train and route will be fully automatic?

Let's be honest, the Union will not allow full automation. I don't have a problem with that, but it means we're stuck with full cabs.

I beg to differ. Once it's down to one-person operation, the Union only cares that OPO is one person on the train, not necessarily operating it. SRT has been virtually automatic since day one.

I'll ask you again EYTTCF: Do you avoid the front window on the top of a double decker? If so, then you're the exception. It's almost always the one taken first. Maybe not with you, but with *most* normal people, there's a wish to see where they're going.

And there's no reason to think that will be taken away in the future of Toronto's previous generation(s) subway because of union wishes. Toronto is behind the times. The question isn't if, it's 'how much'? Rough guess: At least a generation.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Are you talking about full width cabs?

Here's a reminder of where this all started:





I'll ask you again EYTTCF: Do you avoid the front window on the top of a double decker? If so, then you're the exception. It's almost always the one taken first. Maybe not with you, but with *most* normal people, there's a wish to see where they're going.

And there's no reason to think that will be taken away in the future of Toronto's last generation(s) subway because of union wishes. Toronto is behind the times. The question isn't if, it's 'how much'?

A bus is different most people don't go to the front of a subway train to see out the window unless they are a huge rail fan or have younger kids with them. A front window on a subway train isn't something that the average customer actually cares about and if you notice anytime anyone is sitting there that isn't a kid they aren't looking out the window at all.

 

[steveintoronto]

A bus is different most people don't go to the front of a subway train to see out the window unless they are a huge rail fan or have younger kids with them. A front window on a subway train isn't something that the average customer actually cares about and if you notice anytime anyone is sitting there that isn't a kid they aren't looking out the window at all.

I suggest you read the newspaper references I've posted prior, and some I didn't like Brad Ross being quoted in the NYTimes on the matter, but I digress...

Your powers of observation need the batteries recharged. One thing I will grant is that the seating isn't conducive to it, and it wrenches the neck to do it..which is why some sit sideways on the end seat.

I can guarantee you, I've watched people in Europe with the seats oriented forward gladly peer out the front window, even in London where the tunnels usually aren't lit (although the newer ones are).

Here's what's coming for London for 2020: (inevitably delayed, but coming none-the-less, it's still a gen or more ahead of Toronto)
Anna Winston | 9 October 2014 Dezeen magazine (colloquial for 'design')

Called the New Tube for London, the designs ditch the traditional carriage layout of existing tubes for one long, complete structure of finite length with air conditioning and Wi-Fi built in. The firm has produced two versions, one with a driver's cab and one that is driverless with seats running up to the front of the cab.

In February, Transport for London published a public advert for a supplier for 250 driverless tube trains for the Piccadilly, Central, Bakerloo and Waterloo & City lines as part of the New Tube for London project, with a contract worth £16 billion.

Asked by Dezeen if the trains had been designed to be driverless, Paul Priestman, co-founder of Preistmangoode, said: "They're adaptable. I can't say too much on the subject but yes… it's future proofed."

Update: Boris Johnson has confirmed that the first trains will have drivers, but these will be phased and the trains will be automated out by the middle of the 2020s.

"Automation is going to come. This train will allow us to do that," said Johnson at a press briefing this morning.

Images show a frontage that has no immediately visible driver's cab, but a large window surrounded by a strip of curved light created using LEDs with a door in the centre.

"There's a door down the centre which allows people to evacuate through the front of the vehicle if necessary, in an emergency, and it's designed to future proof all developments in cab," said Priestman. [...feature continues at length with details and pics...]

https://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/09/priestmangoode-driverless-tube-trains-london-underground/

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I suggest you read the newspaper references I've posted prior, and some I didn't like Brad Ross being quoted in the NYTimes on the matter, but I digress...

Your powers of observation need the batteries recharged.

What are you talking about that my powers of observation need a recharge i ride the subway every day and if im in the first car no one other than kids care about looking out the front window of it. If they didn't need a front window for operational use it wouldn't be there at all.

 

[steveintoronto]

If they didn't need a front window for operational use it wouldn't be there at all.

Indeed in your world.

How Toronto of you...

[...]
Generally trains operate automatically with no driver but each rail car has a console concealed behind a locked panel at each end of the rail car from which they can be manually driven. Likened to the responsibilities of a ‘train captain’, a Passenger Service Agent (PSA) is on-board every train and able to take manual control of the train in certain circumstances including equipment failure and emergencies. Because of the absence of a driver’s cab, seats in the fully-glazed car ends provide an unusual front and backward view for passengers.
[...]
The DLR has always been one of the most well-liked modes of transport in London, evidenced by high customer satisfaction. Passengers have been known to compete for the very front seat on the train, enabling them to have the ultimate train ride experience.
[...]
Aside from driving the train when required, the role of the PSA is to patrol the train to check tickets, make audio announcements, control the closing of the doors and for the safety of passengers.

https://www.intelligenttransport.co...470/the-dlr-is-ready-to-take-up-centre-stage/

Can't have that in Toronto. Only in progressive cities. How's that John Tory 'Zero Vision' thing coming along there, eh?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Indeed in your world.

How Toronto of you...

https://www.intelligenttransport.co...470/the-dlr-is-ready-to-take-up-centre-stage/

Can't have that in Toronto. Only in progressive cities. How's that John Tory 'Zero Vision' thing coming along there, eh?

I would stop saying that cities are progressive because they have a few lines or trains that don't have drivers in them. Vision zero has nothing to do with this debate at all, there are many problems with vision zero being implemented and its not just because of an obsession with cars.

Would i like to see a train with a large window at the front and back for people to look out yes but that's because I'm a rail fan. As i said before the general public that rides transit doesn't give a crap about being able to see out the front of a train.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'll ask you again EYTTCF: Do you avoid the front window on the top of a double decker? If so, then you're the exception. It's almost always the one taken first. Maybe not with you, but with *most* normal people, there's a wish to see where they're going.

And there's no reason to think that will be taken away in the future of Toronto's previous generation(s) subway because of union wishes. Toronto is behind the times. The question isn't if, it's 'how much'? Rough guess: At least a generation.

For the record, I take every opportunity I can get to sit at the very front of a T1 or have the front seat of a GO DD bus. I don't think full cabs are the better option per say, but my cynicism is directed at the Union's view on progress. That's not to say that I'm necessarily against their stance either. However, that cynicism allows me to believe that the TTC will continue to install full cabs on all future trains until ATO without an operator becomes standard on the TTC, and I personally don't see that happening any time soon.

To clarify, I don't see why the union would switch T1s to full cabs, rather, I argued that the next generation of rolling stock would continue to utilize full cabs. Because these future trains will replace all of the T1s, we, the transit nerds that we are, will unfortunately loose the privilege of sitting at the front watching the train goes through the tunnels. It was purely a sentimental statement.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

For the record, I take every opportunity I can get to sit at the very front of a T1 or have the front seat of a GO DD bus. I don't think full cabs are the better option per say, but my cynicism is directed at the Union's view on progress. That's not to say that I'm necessarily against their stance either. However, that cynicism allows me to believe that the TTC will continue to install full cabs on all future trains until ATO without an operator becomes standard on the TTC, and I personally don't see that happening any time soon.

To clarify, I don't see why the union would switch T1s to full cabs, rather, I argued that the next generation of rolling stock would continue to utilize full cabs. Because these future trains will replace all of the T1s, we, the transit nerds that we are, will unfortunately loose the privilege of sitting at the front watching the train goes through the tunnels. It was purely a sentimental statement.

That's exactly what my thoughts were too. I love the TR trains because they are new and you can walk through them but i do miss being able to see out the front of them. Do i wish we could have a better view out the front yes, but i also understand the need for the driver and the guard to be able to do their job without having to have people moving out of the way or asking them questions all the time.

 

[steveintoronto]

but i also understand the need for the driver and the guard to be able to do their job without having to have people moving out of the way or asking them questions all the time.

I'll mention it one more time, over the four or five I've already done:
Glass partition, just like in the Flexities. How hard is that to understand? And if privacy is an issue, only across the centre and right hand side to allow the operator to sit in the seat which is to the left.

And the future trains won't need an operator per-se. Many other jurisdictions are already fully automatic, you only need a 'train captain'. And that's virtually what already exists in the (mentioned yet again) SRT. And has been for a generation. Seltrac. Google for it.

The 67 km (42 mi) light metro system is projected to cost CA$6.3 billion. It will be independent of—but connected to—the existing Montreal Metro, operated by the STM. Trains on the network are expected to be fully automated and driverless, and it would become the fourth longest automated transportation system in the world, after the Singapore Mass Rapid Transit, Vancouver Skytrain, and Dubai Metro.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réseau_express_métropolitain

Meantime in more advanced locales:

https://www.sydneymetro.info/files/sydney-metro-train-front-window

And the same model of Metropolis that Montreal's REM will use:

The REM will use automated Alstom Metropolis trains, similar to the ones built for the Sydney Metro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réseau_express_métropolitain#/media/File:Sydney_Metro_train_(better_quality).jpg

But worry not! Some day, the Toronto Subway will have CBTC and ATO. Maybe...maybe not. It's a bit revolutionary for the likes of Toronto. Maybe more gargantuan parking warehouses for stations instead. Tory's 'Zero Vision' (not to be confused with Vision Zero, hard to understand being Swedish in origin) is living up to its name...

 

[JSF-1]

You can have full cabs while maintaining a view out to front as seen here in Japan. These trains can also run ATO but they only started testing that a couple of weeks ago. It still operates as Driver with D-ATC and a guard.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In fact, why have windows on the sides, when the very first "subway" trains were completely open on all sides?

From link.

From link.

 

[steveintoronto]

You can have full cabs while maintaining a view out to front as seen here in Japan. These trains can also run ATO but they only started testing that a couple of weeks ago. It still operates as Driver with D-ATC and a guard.

There's lots of them. But it requires a poster to think outside their box...can't have that in Toronto.

Btw: Great vid. Hour long, will watch it in entirety later, but immediately noticed the driver is doing the pointing Japanese operators are trained to do. It's a mental Yoga. And also how incredibly green and lush Tokyo is.

The Yamanote Line is the best way to get around Tokyo and discover Tokyo major spots. The circular line connects 29 stations including major stations as Tokyo Station, Shibuya Station, Shinjuku Station, Shinagawa Station, Ueno Station and Yurakucho Station.

The Yamanote line travels 34,5 km in one hour, with trains departing every two minutes during the day and every 30 seconds during rush hours. It is best to avoid rush hours as it is very crowded.

https://www.japan-rail-pass.com/japan-by-rail/travel-tips/yamanote-line
"every 30 seconds during rush hour".

Someone knows how to run a rail system...alert John Tory, this could be part of his 'Zero Vision'...And Doug Ford could build this to Wawa. Underground, that's best ya know...

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

In fact, why have windows on the sides, when the very first "subway" trains were completely open on all sides?

From link.

From link.

.......