TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[smallspy]

It's actually in the union's best interest to increase productivity of the second train crew member. I don't put this down to the union though. I put it down to poor management.

For whatever reason, there are different rules in place on the two lines. I can't recall which does which, but on one line the train operator handles all announcements and on the other the second crewmember does.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[steveintoronto]

For whatever reason, there are different rules in place on the two lines. I can't recall which does which, but on one line the train operator handles all announcements and on the other the second crewmember does.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

The differing train set-ups for Line 1 v Line 2 probably dictate that, but this is confirmation that the crew does do announcements, and some are even voluntary and helpful ones, like one I heard two days ago (and it's needed) to "Kindly don't block the doors and move into the cars where there's more space"...something that continues to be a rampant problem on all TTC and GO vehicles. It gets to the point where I make an announcement of my own, I get so tired of idiot deadwood: "I see an empty seat over there. Either let me over to it, or I push my way over". Ditto for getting off at the doors.

These people drive, vote and procreate. We're in trouble...

 

[Leo_Chan]

If the TTC had exterior digital signage and announcements on trains in the first place, could the confusion at Bay Lower have been reduced? Completely hypothetical, but still wanted to asked this interesting question.

 

[DSC]

If the TTC had exterior digital signage and announcements on trains in the first place, could the confusion at Bay Lower have been reduced? Completely hypocritical, but still wanted to asked this interesting question.

It is not hypocritical to ask this question, it may be hypothetical.
Presumably the more signage one has (within reason) the less confusion there would have been for passengers but I think part of the problem was actually dealing with the technical issues for the TTC of some trains going to point A and others to point B.

 

[Richard White]

I think part of the problem was actually dealing with the technical issues for the TTC of some trains going to point A and others to point B.

That was precisely it. The concern was that issues in the wye junction would cause a ripple effect on all other lines given how they connected. If a train went O/S at Bay Lower you would only have half the service levels because every other train went south at that point. When it came back online you would have trains out of sequence. Essentially service would have been hit hard across the system if something happened in or around the wye.

Bay Lower also got closed because you had two trains going eastbound and nobody could tell (without waiting on the stairs) which train was coming first.

The general idea behind the wye was good BUT the way it was designed was not. It ended up being the Achilles heel of the TTC.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Sort-of good news: Just 1 of 7 councillors who sat on the TTC board at its last meeting of the term in July survived the election.

Bad news: Deputy Mayor Denzil Minnan-Wong is the last one standing.

Toronto voters shake up TTC board as four members defeated

From link.

Please select councillors who actually use the TTC!!

 

[smallspy]

The differing train set-ups for Line 1 v Line 2 probably dictate that, ....

No, it doesn't. This rule has been in place for longer than the TRs have been on the property. All types of equipment are perfectly capable of broadcasting interior announcements from any location in the train.

If the TTC had exterior digital signage and announcements on trains in the first place, could the confusion at Bay Lower have been reduced? Completely hypocritical, but still wanted to asked this interesting question.

It's an interesting hypothetical. Are we also going to assume a more advanced signal system as well? Because that alone would remove about 95% of the issues that stemmed from the interlining trial.

But I would argue that no, additional signage and announcements wouldn't have made a difference. The TTC was not interested in the interlining trial, and had to be forced into it. And the track layout of the wye just reinforces that the system was never designed for it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Leo_Chan]

And the track layout of the wye just reinforces that the system was never designed for it.

Isn’t the wye grade separated? Which means it was designed so train switching lines to not interfere with opposing trains on the same line?

 

[kevhu]

Isn’t the wye grade separated? Which means it was designed so train switching lines to not interfere with opposing trains on the same line?

It is indeed grade separated. I think it's just as mentioned above, any problem at the wye would have a huge effect to the entire system.

 

[robmausser]

It is indeed grade separated. I think it's just as mentioned above, any problem at the wye would have a huge effect to the entire system.
View attachment 161554

what map is this?

 

[nfitz]

And the track layout of the wye just reinforces that the system was never designed for it.

The TTC design for adding the Bloor platforms at Yonge station suggest the system was never designed not to have a wye.

The terminal designs for most terminals suggest the system was never designed to run trains every 2.5 minutes.

The Broadview Station 504 streetcar loop suggests that it wasn't designed to handle the current demand.

Poor TTC design isn't by itself necessarily the basis for such conclusions!

 

[steveintoronto]

No, it doesn't. This rule has been in place for longer than the TRs have been on the property. All types of equipment are perfectly capable of broadcasting interior announcements from any location in the train.

TTC spokesperson Brad Ross...said the number of “eyes and ears” on the subway system will be increased under the TTC’s new staffing model, which will deploy more employees to common areas of subway stations.

He added that switching to OPTO will make subways safer by reducing the number of incidents in which inattentive guards open doors before the train has fully pulled into the station. Making the subway operator responsible for both stopping the train and opening the doors makes such mistakes less likely, Ross said.
[...]
The TTC eventually plans to convert Line 2 (Bloor-Danforth) to single-person operation, but the T1 trains that run on that line are much older than the Toronto Rocket models operating on Lines 1 and 4. The T1 models will reach the end of their service life within the next 10 years, and Ross said it wouldn’t be cost-effective to retrofit them with OPTO systems now.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/10/02/ttc-forging-ahead-with-one-operator-subway-trains.html

"All types of equipment are perfectly capable of broadcasting interior announcements from any location in the train."? Do you mean any cab? Or do you mean a wireless remote connecting into the train's PA system?

 

[steveintoronto]

The TTC design for adding the Bloor platforms at Yonge station suggest the system was never designed not to have a wye.

The terminal designs for most terminals suggest the system was never designed to run trains every 2.5 minutes.

The Broadview Station 504 streetcar loop suggests that it wasn't designed to handle the current demand.

Poor TTC design isn't by itself necessarily the basis for such conclusions!

As sarcastic as this might seem, I agree with all of this post...and the inescapable conclusion that trying to squeeze Corvette performance out of a Chevrolet sedan, beyond tweaking, is prone to see massive failure.

It's time for the GTHA, Ontario and Metrolinx to realize the solution is in surface rail, (albeit some in tunnel, as in RER) if anywhere. But alas...Toronto insists on re-electing Mr Beige as Mayor, and Doug Lodyte as Premier.

The subway should by and large be left as it is, other than maximizing a few parameters. Trying to get it to do what it was never designed for is folly in so many ways...

It's time to *by-pass it*.

 

[smallspy]

Isn’t the wye grade separated? Which means it was designed so train switching lines to not interfere with opposing trains on the same line?

It is, but look at how it's designed - St George westbound and Bay eastbound each have 2 platforms. If you are a passenger at either station, and the interlining service is in operation, which platform will be the correct one for the next train? A far better solution would have been for each station to have been built as one level - so that there were only one platform for both eastbound and westbound - or at worst, have only a single westbound platform at St George and a single eastbound platform at Bay.

Instead, they had the system designed more-or-less as the TTC wanted - and which easily allowed the University line to be tied into the Spadina line when the need arose 15 or so years later.

The TTC design for adding the Bloor platforms at Yonge station suggest the system was never designed not to have a wye.

And how does that hinder the system today?

The terminal designs for most terminals suggest the system was never designed to run trains every 2.5 minutes.

They were designed to run trains at 2.5 minute headways, but not much beyond that.

The Broadview Station 504 streetcar loop suggests that it wasn't designed to handle the current demand.

I would suggest that it (and the loop at Dundas West) can easily handle the current demand if the TTC were to think a bit more critically.

Poor TTC design isn't by itself necessarily the basis for such conclusions!

So who do we put the blame on? London and New York, as those are the two operations that we fashioned our subway systems after? Us, for using the TTC so much?

"All types of equipment are perfectly capable of broadcasting interior announcements from any location in the train."? Do you mean any cab? Or do you mean a wireless remote connecting into the train's PA system?

My apologies, I will try and be a bit more clear: All of the equipment in the subway is capable of broadcasting an announcement from any cab in that trainset. On the TRs, that only gives two options, but on the older cars, they can broadcast from any of the 6 (if the train is that long).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[steveintoronto]

@nfitz wrote:

Poor TTC design isn't by itself necessarily the basis for such conclusions!

So who do we put the blame on? London and New York, as those are the two operations that we fashioned our subway systems after? Us, for using the TTC so much?

To take this point up a notch, and ignore the NY Subway for now, East Side Access is a hell of a botch-up, as are most aspects of attempted modernization in NYC right now, a whole discussion in itself, but to use London, a much clearer example of *Bypassing* the tube, and doing so exquisitely (with a share of glitches re signal tech delaying opening until early next year):

[...]New nine-carriage Class 345 trains will run at frequencies in the central section of up to 24 trains per hour in each direction. It is expected to relieve pressure on existing east-west London Underground lines such as the Central and District lines, as well as the Jubilee line extension and the Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly line. Crossrail will be operated by MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Ltd as a London Rail concession of Transport for London,[3] in a similar manner to London Overground. TfL's annual ticket revenues for the project are forecast to exceed £800 million per year in 2020/21 and over £900 million per year from 2022/23.[8] [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail

"the two operations that we fashioned our subway systems after" are no longer doing what Toronto is attempting to do. They've already seen the light, and it isn't to keep adding on extensions to the body with the old chassis underneath.

It's a dilemma, as Ontarians in general don't seem to have a clue as to what a "modern" city must do to embrace the future. In Toronto's case (although the subway uploading may render this all moot) even talking of the Relief Line being mainline capable evokes howls of derision. Torontonians, let alone Ontarians just can't see past the 'model' adopted from yesterday.

It's a very real problem...and I can't see it getting any better.

My apologies, I will try and be a bit more clear: All of the equipment in the subway is capable of broadcasting an announcement from any cab in that trainset. On the TRs, that only gives two options, but on the older cars, they can broadcast from any of the 6 (if the train is that long).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Thank you.