News   Jun 28, 2024
 2.8K     3 
News   Jun 28, 2024
 1.6K     2 
News   Jun 28, 2024
 600     1 

TTC: Other Items (catch all)

Then how did London's Victoria Line manage it? Line was built in the 60's. Same age as the Bloor and University lines.
I repeat again, I have trepidations on driverless, but the science and record aren't the excuse, just human perception.

Ok just to be clear, there are different levels of automation. The London Victoria Line isn't fully-autonomous, it still depends on the driver to do virtually everything except moving the train under normal conditions. There are three separate degrees of automation - 2, 3, and 4. Grade 4 systems are the only ones that can safely automate on their own. The SRT is grade 4-capable but operates as grade 2. I'm not sure what level of automation is built into the Yonge-University subway but there's no excuse IMO for not equipping it with grade 4.
 
I have a lot of respect for Wolmar, been subscribing to his newsletters for years, albeit he took a drubbing standing for Mayor of London.

Here's his viewpoint on driverless, although that can't be confused with "staffless" trains:
17 Comments January 14, 2011 Evening Standard
Boris driverless nonsense


The idea of driverless trains any time in the near future is a ridiculous fantasy and Boris’s musings about them are mere political braggadacio. Sure, as Boris said,the Central and the Victoria lines, and part of the Jubilee are operated automatically, but that’s because the signalling equipment is completely different from those on the other lines.To fit the rest of the Tube network with automatic train control systems would take at least a decade, and cost billions, money which the mayor knows is not available.

Moreover, the idea of completely unstaffed trains is equally fanciful. When the Victoria Line was completed over 40 years ago, London Transport discussed whether the trains would need to have a person in the front cab, even though all they do is operate the doors. It was decided, understandably, that the notion of a train with an empty drivers cab would be unsettling for many travellers and indeed few users of the line know, even today, that the main function of the ‘driver’ is merely to open and shut the doors. Even the DLR has a ‘train captain’ who can drive the train if there is a technical problem and ensure passengers can be evacuated in an emergency. Trains travelling through London’s Underground Victorian tunnels will always be staffed, and those people will always be able to exercise their right to strike. Driverless trains, therefore, would not solve the Tube’s strike problems and Boris’s speech must be viewed in the context of the terrible industrial relations endured by London Underground.
http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2011/01/boris-driverless-nonsense/

In the event, many other very progressive cities in Europe run very efficient and trouble free driverless systems. The number continues to grow, and Vancouver remains a prime example, noted in the international press.

-----------------------------------

Forum software has been tweaked, very much for the better. Line format commands don't run on after being instructed to stop. Huge improvement.
 
Last edited:
There's no shortage of excellent articles on the subject on-line. The following one, now two years dated (and the latest indications are that the figures are even further improved) cites an in-depth study for its basis: (Photos and diagrams/charts removed to save character count. Access link for them)
The Case for Driverless Trains, By the Numbers
In 8 revealing facts and figures, plus 3 charts.
Eric Jaffe
[...]
CityLab has made the case for driverless trains before, but some new evidence from an impressive survey of 23 rail-based transit systems around the world that operate (or have plans to operate) highly automated lines gives us several new facts and figures to bolster that position. The work comes courtesy of a group of researchers at the Railway and Transport Strategy Centre of Imperial College London, who presented it at a conference earlier this year.

There are 4 main types of automated trains.
Type 1 trains have automated elements but are manually driven. Type 2's have automatic train operation (ATO) but a driver in the cab to operate doors and get the train started. Type 3 trains have an attendant in a passenger car to operate doors. And Type 4 ATOs, the highest, are capable of going totally driverless (though occasionally these, too, have an official on board for other purposes).

Automated trains only operate on 6% of the world's total rail-transit line length.
At least, that was the case as of 2013, according to the Imperial College London research team. Some notable metros with automated service include Paris (Line 1), Copenhagen, and Vancouver. London has announced plans to go driverless in the future, and Honolulu is working toward the first fully automated major system in the United States.

The rate of return for automation is estimated at 10-15%.
Obviously, cost savings will vary from system to system, and automation requires a significant up-front investment from transit agencies. But the operational savings should be significant (reportedly 30 percent in the case of the Paris Metro, compared with conventional service). And two transit systems in the Imperial College report estimated their rate of return at 10 to 15 percent.

Staff savings can be as much as 70%.
Or, to be more precise, the ratio of staff per asset (trains plus stations) was found to be 70 percent less in unattended automated systems compared with "fully staffed" systems (see the chart below). On automated systems where stations but not trains are staffed, the staff savings were still 30 percent. That's a huge reduction in labor costs, saving more money for actual operations.

The highest-frequency metros (42 trains per hour) are fully automated.
Speaking of saving money for actual operations, the Imperial College researchers point out that the two highest-frequency metro lines in their study—running 42 trains an hour—are both Type 4 fully automated systems (below). A majority of the existing and planned automated lines they came across ran more than 30 trains an hour. Automation isn't the only factor in greater frequency, but the two certainly appear to be closely related.

Driverless trains have 4-6% more room for passengers.
Removing the driver's cab saves space on the train. The Paris Metro reportedly added 6 percent to its capacity, and one system in the Americas estimated a capacity savings of 4 to 5 percent, according to the Imperial College study. (Sadly, systems in this study were kept anonymous as part of the terms of the data exchange.) One European system also reported a savings of 1 percent on the cost of trains that came without cabs.

Automated lines were in the top third for reliability.
Six ATOs provided data on reliability, measured as distance between incidents that caused more than a 5-minute delay. Compared with whole transit networks in the study, these lines were in the top third in terms of reliability, with one fully automated line improving reliability by 56 percent (below). Even upgrading from a Type 1 to a Type 2 ATO provided up to a 33 percent reduction in 5-minute-delay incidents, according to other research.

Headway regularity—i.e. space between trains—is better than 99% on automated systems.
One system reported that headway regularity on their automated trains is upwards of 99.8 percent. That means less train bunching, and thus a better experience for riders waiting on the platform. More anecdotally, in discussing the upgrades to D.C.'s Metro, Deputy General Manager Rob Troup pointed to headway regularity and the general smoothness of the ride as huge benefits to the computer-driven system:

“As all the trains start to move to ATO, we’ll have consistent rides, consistent headways,” Troup said, referring to the spacing of trains. “We won’t have trains bunching up. We won’t have trains lagging. And we’ll have smoother acceleration, smoother stops.”
[...]
http://www.citylab.com/tech/2015/04/the-case-for-driverless-trains-by-the-numbers/390408/
 
Last edited:
As the one who originally asked the question about driverless subways, I think it boils down to one thing - The Unions. I think that somewhere it is written that all trains must be staffed. Think of the number of people who would be out of work if they switched to driverless trains.
 
Think of the number of people who would be out of work if they switched to driverless trains.
In fact, in almost all cases, the loss is by attrition. The logic can be inverted and expressed by wondering: "Think of how many jobs will be lost by computers"?

As you know, it's an empty argument when viewed in the context of progress. In almost all driverless systems, a staff member is still on the train, at least in Western examples.

Think of all the jobs lost by using tractors on farms...Ironically, I don't have, or plan to have a 'smartphone'. What's the point? I see a lot of stupid people doing stupid things and they have "smart" phones stuck in their faces. Hey...A 'dumbphone' covers almost all real needs, and the Nokia is making a triumphant comeback! And lo and behold, it's cheap to run one.

And yet it's the "smartphone" crowd most avid to block societal progress in many ways. In all fairness the terminology is being skewed. (as is rampant for the bit/byte crowd) The applications are *microprocessors* not "computers" which is the human interface.

Edit to Add: Just to make that last point, which may appear obtuse to many, here's a definition for "microprocessor" (although I do take technical issue with it, it makes the point none-the-less)

mi·cro·proc·es·sor
ˌmīkrəˈpräsesər,ˌmīkrəˈprōˌsesər/
noun
plural noun: microprocessors
  1. an integrated circuit that contains all the functions of a central processing unit of a computer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor
 
Last edited:
In fact, in almost all cases, the loss is by attrition. The logic can be inverted and expressed by wondering: "Think of how many jobs will be lost by computers".

As you know, it's an empty argument when viewed in the context of progress. In almost all driverless systems, a staff member is still on the train, at least in Western examples.

Think of all the jobs lost by using tractors on farms...Ironically, I don't have, or plan to have a 'smartphone'. What's the point? I see a lot of stupid people doing stupid things and they have "smart" phones stuck in their faces. Hey...

And yet it's the "smartphone" crowd most avid to block societal progress in many ways. In all fairness the terminology is being skewed. (as is rampant for the bit/byte crowd) The applications are *microprocessors* not "computers" which is the human interface.

Edit to Add: Just to make that last point, which may appear obtuse to many, here's a definition for "microprocessor" (although I do take technical issue with it, it makes the point none-the-less)

mi·cro·proc·es·sor
ˌmīkrəˈpräsesər,ˌmīkrəˈprōˌsesər/
noun
plural noun: microprocessors
  1. an integrated circuit that contains all the functions of a central processing unit of a computer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor

Vancouver's system is driverless and completely unmanned. If the TTC went that way, that would be a lot of attrition.
 
Best I define the term "attrition":
Employee Attrition Definition
Employee attrition is the uncontrollable reduction in a workforce population due to retirements, deaths, terminations or voluntary resignations. Attrition can also apply to workers leaving a business on a permanent or temporary basis to deal with sudden illnesses. Predicting reductions in a workforce through attrition is difficult in the absence of employee contracts or required retirement dates. At will employees -- workers operating without predetermined lengths of employment -- remain free to leave an organization at any time without giving prior notice.
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/reduction-attrition-38133.html

In the event, in the case of the TTC, a 'train operator' will still be on-board every train, just not necessarily 'driving' (or a passive form of)
 
Last edited:
Think of the number of people who would be out of work if they switched to driverless trains.

It's all about framing. Think of how much housing the city could subsidize and make affordable with the money they currently spend on two drivers per train. Think of how many extra buses could be operated with that money. Eliminating ~425 full-time-equivalent operator positions would make this year's fare increase unnecessary, and that's only counting salary - it doesn't count payroll taxes or the cost of employee benefits.

(Editing this in after) Just to put the ~425 number in perspective, based on these numbers and only counting the trains in operation, the subway & RT system needs about 370 FTE positions to run service on weekdays. Then there's also weekend/holiday service, operators' breaks, and time spent getting trains into & out of service.
 
Last edited:
It's all about framing. Think of how much housing the city could subsidize and make affordable with the money they currently spend on two drivers per train. Think of how many extra buses could be operated with that money. Eliminating ~425 full-time-equivalent operator positions would make this year's fare increase unnecessary, and that's only counting salary - it doesn't count payroll taxes or the cost of employee benefits.

(Editing this in after) Just to put the ~425 number in perspective, based on these numbers and only counting the trains in operation, the subway & RT system needs about 370 FTE positions to run service on weekdays. Then there's also weekend/holiday service, operators' breaks, and time spent getting trains into & out of service.

That is more what I meant. Switching to driverless trains would allow the same money to go elsewhere in the system, or the city.
 
That is more what I meant. Switching to driverless trains would allow the same money to go elsewhere in the system, or the city.
I know Brad Ross has said on twitter that the TTC does not want to go driverless on the subway until they have platform edge doors in place at all stations on a line, right now cost of putting them in is the major factor of it.
 
That is more what I meant. Switching to driverless trains would allow the same money to go elsewhere in the system, or the city.

Well they would probably first credit that savings towards the cost of setting up driverless trains, just as they did with setting up one person train operation on Sheppard, and eventually Yonge.
 
I know Brad Ross has said on twitter that the TTC does not want to go driverless on the subway until they have platform edge doors in place at all stations on a line, right now cost of putting them in is the major factor of it.
If suicides are a problem, them perhaps driverless is better to spare the driver of the trauma.
 
I know Brad Ross has said on twitter that the TTC does not want to go driverless on the subway until they have platform edge doors in place at all stations on a line, right now cost of putting them in is the major factor of it.
I think the reasoning is that only driverless trains (i.e. computers) will be able to line the train doors up with the platform ones. Frankly, though driverless trains and platform doors both have advantages I think the TTC has FAR larger and more urgent things to worry about.
 

Back
Top